Divination - Not What You Think

[beenherebeforeagain]

In at least some of these discussions, the issue is the other person isn't interested in listening to or understanding another's perspectives. They can't play the rule of a cultural ethnographer, simply recording and observing what others are saying to them without judgement and overwriting the story being told to them with their own twist on it. As I'm sure you're aware, the observer inserting bias was not an insignificant problem as anthropology arose as a discipline. It seems our default attitude is often to be ethnocentric when approaching other cultures, and bend what they say so it fits into our worldview instead of attempting to truly understand theirs. Learning to do otherwise is precisely that - a learned skill.

Agreed--something I've just been learning to do better in the last few years.

 

[outhouse]

It seems our default attitude is often to be ethnocentric when approaching other cultures, and bend what they say so it fits into our worldview instead of attempting to truly understand theirs.

What if using cultural anthropology we understand some of these cultures forward and backwards and simple witness primitive practices that amount to common primitive forms of spirituality?

To support what your saying, many or most people are probably ignorant of cultural anthropology of many cultures and their practices. But to say that cultural anthropology and the well educated makes these stereotypical mistakes is not correct.

 

[buddhist]

I hope you don't mind me chiming in on this particular point.

A lot of people (myself included) probably start out expecting divination to tell them the future. Teenagers right? Some will then become disillusioned when it doesn't always work, others will learn to look at it from a more pragmatic viewpoint.

I used to read tarot for people at university. What I'd always tell them is "don't expect this to tell you what's going to happen tomorrow. View it as offering some useful advice you can apply to your life."

I think two major aspects which many people miss regarding divination is 1. the volitional intent of the querent and 2. the spiritual energies being contacted or used in the process.

In my experience, the answer one receives is largely dependant on both. Intent determines what or who is contacted and allowed access, and the energies contacted determines the quality of the answer received.

If a querent intends to question a specific spiritual energy (a specific deity, spirit, etc.), then the answer he or she receives depends on the spiritual knowledge and level of that spiritual energy queried. Even then, the answer also depends on the reciprocal willingness of that specific spiritual energy to answer accurately, to the best of its knowledge. Though higher-level deities possess a broader range of knowledge and perceptual ability, they may or may not answer (they're focused on their own pleasures); lower-level deities, spirits, etc. on the other hand may be more accessible but are more limited in perception. A high level of personal spiritual development also plays a part in attracting the attention of higher-level spiritual energies ... but then again, there is no guarantee that even high-level energies are always benevolent.

IMO, better than querying a foreign spiritual energy is to develop one's own spiritual perceptions, so that one can perceive the answers him- or herself, instead of relying on another intelligence and trusting in the latter's intentions. A true spiritual master travels this path or self-development and self-perception, instead of taking the "easier" path often employed by lesser beings to manipulate their reality in selfish ways.

Those who are new to divination - such as children or other amateurs - who do not understand nor can or know how to control these two major aspects often open themselves up to any spiritual energy who might come their way, and cause erroneous (at least) or disasterous (at worst) experiences.

 

[Riverwolf]

What if using cultural anthropology we understand some of these cultures forward and backwards and simple witness primitive practices that amount to common primitive forms of spirituality?

To support what your saying, many or most people are probably ignorant of cultural anthropology of many cultures and their practices. But to say that cultural anthropology and the well educated makes these stereotypical mistakes is not correct.

While it's certainly not as prevalent as it once was, it was DEFINITELY a huge problem for a long time, particularly during the Colonial era.

However, I'm not so sure that the status of being "well-educated" is automatically going to be a shield against stereotyping. It's entirely possible to be very well-educated and still stereotype other cultures, even if the stereotypes are different from more Colonial ones.

It's impossible for any one human to be free from bias, or even to get close, especially for those of us who grew up monolingual. There's a standpoint that I wholeheartedly agree with that language (including dialect) is synonymous with culture. How mind-blowing is it for an English speaker to know, for example, that Old English had THREE words for "to be": "beon", "wesan", and "seon"? (Granted, "seon" only differed from "wesan" in its Imperative form, but still). One of the most fundamental verbs in Modern English doesn't even have one exact cognate in its own form from 1000 years ago. And this applies to other languages, too. Just try typing in some English phrase into Google translate, translate it into some other language, then translate that back into English and see what you get. (For fun, here's that last sentence translated into, and back from, Basque: "And this also applies to other languages. Just try to read Inglesa writing phrase Into Google translate, read back to another language, then return back Inglesa this and see what you get.")

Now consider the entire lexicons from other languages, whether kin with English in the wider Indo-European family, or completely foreign such as Japanese. Words carry so much more baggage than their standard dictionary definitions, or translations into another language, all informed by regional dialects; i.e., cultures. Even in the context of the same country: American English is divided into several regional dialects, such that the same words often can have completely different meanings depending on where you are. As a result, I, as a Northern Californian, might have a hard time communicating effectively with someone from, say, Alabama, if we both stuck to our regional dialects, slang and all, instead of defaulting (as best we could) to General American English. Now expand that into the wider English-speaking world. And NOW go listen to excerpts from Scots, our closest linguistic relative, and see if you can follow it 100%.

Now expand that to the wider world.

See, that's the thing about being well-educated. It doesn't mean we're shielded from our biases; all it ultimately means is that we're just more aware that they're there. It's also becoming more and more clear that we can never 100% understand other cultures without having grown up in them. What we can do is reach enough of an understanding that we can effectively trade while not going to war, which is good enough for me.

And I guarantee you that won't happen so long as we cling to such Colonialist words as "primitive" to describe other cultures that might not have the dependency on hyper-complex tools that we do.

 

[Erebus]

IMO, better than querying a foreign spiritual energy is to develop one's own spiritual perceptions, so that one can perceive the answers him- or herself, instead of relying on another intelligence and trusting in the latter's intentions. A true spiritual master travels this path or self-development and self-perception, instead of taking the "easier" path often employed by lesser beings to manipulate their reality in selfish ways.

Some of what you posted doesn't quite gel with my own experiences, but this bit definitely rings true. To my mind, we know the answers to a lot of our own questions already. There's some part of us that's already made a decision. Divination can help us bring those answers to the surface.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Consider this scenario:

Many years ago an old man was looking intently at the stars.

Two young men were watching him and talking.
The one young man claimed that the old man was divining the future by reading the signs in the stars.
The other young man laughed at such foolishness.
Off he went, as he had better things to do, like plant his crops.
He cursed the others calling them mad and lazy for shirking their farming duty.

A few weeks later, the old man was looking at the stars.
'Now' he said, 'now is the right time to plant.'

 

[outhouse]

And I guarantee you that won't happen so long as we cling to such Colonialist words as "primitive"

Thee is a time and a place to use such a word. I viewed your reply as cautionary in context which I agree whole hearted.

 

[Riverwolf]

Thee is a time and a place to use such a word.

That time and place is never in reference to other cultures, or their practices.

 

[Quintessence]

That time and place is never in reference to other cultures, or their practices.

I'm not sure if there is a proper time and place to use that word. I can't think of a case where other terms couldn't be used and to greater accuracy (aka, without the condescending implication). The use of the word "primitive" by non-biologists when talking about evolutionary biology annoys me in particular, because it reinforces the whole myth of progress (aka, humans are the "pinnacle" of evolution and other life forms are "primitive" to our glory) that is not scientific. The typical biologist will use a term like "early" or "precursor," perhaps reference the specific geological era, rather than use a word like "primitive."

Neither here nor there. This is all a bit tangential... heh.

 

[outhouse]

That time and place is never in reference to other cultures, or their practices.

Not sure about that.

There is a time and a place where cultures need to be corrected. I would agree it Is not politically correct, but politically correct does not correct anything.

Many of these practices are such in my view because of what they actually propose, there is no better term. To state that some cultures do not act in primitive ways to me is sugar coating the truth.

It is not scientific to use such a term, or stupid or idiotic, but that does not mean people do not fit the bill to a T 100%.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Rape has been here since the beginning and people still do it, human sacrifice has and it is still done in some places, animal cruelty has and it still happens.

Implying I have not done research into magickal practices or tried them myself.

No one has any retort?

 

[Quintessence]

@outhouse
One can hold the perspective that things ought to be changed without being condescending and prejudiced towards others. Having one's own standard of virtue doesn't mean dissing everyone else.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not sure about that.

There is a time and a place where cultures need to be corrected. I would agree it Is not politically correct,

What it is, is imperialist, colonialist, and oftentimes has roots in racism. It's no different from when early Americans tried to "correct" Native Americans.

Many of these practices are such in my view because of what they actually propose, there is no better term. To state that some cultures do not act in primitive ways to me is sugar coating the truth.

It's not a truth that they're acting "primitive". If they're doing something that you find abhorrent, or something they're doing is interfering with your life, there's other words that you can use that don't imply support for colonialism or imperialism.

 

[Quintessence]

No one has any retort?

To be perfectly frank with you, TS, if you're to the point that you're bringing in over-the-top rhetoric like that, it speaks poorly of the strength of your arguments and is hardly worth acknowledging. Whether or not Mindmaster does will be their own affair, but I have no intention of indulging it.

 

[Riverwolf]

No one has any retort?

You have to explain the relevance, first.

 

[outhouse]

What it is, is imperialist, colonialist, and oftentimes has roots in racism. It's no different from when early Americans tried to "correct" Native Americans.

I have no racism implied and any race may qualify

 

[outhouse]

It's not a truth that they're acting "primitive". If they're doing something that you find abhorrent, or something they're doing is interfering with your life, there's other words that you can use that don't imply support for colonialism or imperialism.

Not my point, and it in no way refutes """It is not scientific to use such a term, or stupid or idiotic, but that does not mean people do not fit the bill to a T 100%."""

Some use these practices and it actually harms their own people and others, hell villagers will go to battle to he death with other villages over these kinds of practices. Give me a break, I'm not sticking up for negative actions that embarrass humanity.

 

[outhouse]

@outhouse
One can hold the perspective that things ought to be changed without being condescending and prejudiced towards others. Having one's own standard of virtue doesn't mean dissing everyone else.

Some times the truth needs to be told. Being PC is not always the right way to go about things, agreed?

 

[outhouse]

What funny is it is almost PC to claim MY calling certain cultural practices primitive, as it used to be practiced in the past in anthropology.

 

[Riverwolf]

Some times the truth needs to be told. Being PC is not always the right way to go about things, agreed?

I dunno, you're the one using that term.

I have no racism implied and any race may qualify

You may not intend any racism, but that doesn't mean there isn't any racism in such a statement. If "any race may qualify", then let me tell you: our culture is in absolutely NO position to be "correcting" other cultures.

Not my point, and it in no way refutes """It is not scientific to use such a term, or stupid or idiotic, but that does not mean people do not fit the bill to a T 100%."""

Well, if it's not scientific, what is it, then? Far as I can tell, it's nothing but your own bias.

Some use these practices and it actually harms their own people and others, hell villagers will go to battle to he death with other villages over these kinds of practices. Give me a break, I'm not sticking up for negative actions that embarrass humanity.

Where does the embarrassment come from?