Divinity of Jesus

[Muffled]

This response makes no sense. I wasn't quoting you in this response. And Thomas is not "spurious" as you call it.

I believe the response was from Jesus. I believe He is the last authority on the validity of books.

 

[Muffled]

Actually it isn't surprising at all. The idea of Jesus being just a human teacher and the messiah, has been there from the start.

Practicing Judaism - you know the Moshiach is supposed to be a chosen human. A lot of Early Christians knew this as well. We know it was a subject of contention as the Nicene Councils tell us about it. Unfortunately the new jesus as part of God-in-three religion won out.

I believe this is largely because Jews didn't understand the meaning of the prophecies. The prophecies certainly point to the divinity of the Messiah.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe the response was from Jesus. I believe He is the last authority on the validity of books.

What?? Are you believing you spoke as Jesus? Jesus had nothing to do with what books got selected to be included in the cannon. That is purely a mythological teaching of later bishops to make their choices somehow guided and sanctioned by God. Quite convient to simply say this.

 

[Desert Snake]

What?? Are you believing you spoke as Jesus? Jesus had nothing to do with what books got selected to be included in the cannon. That is purely a mythological teaching of later bishops to make their choices somehow guided and sanctioned by God. Quite convient to simply say this.

What religions aren't mythological in your opinion?

 

[Windwalker]

What religions aren't mythological in your opinion?

Perhaps I should restate what I just said. The teaching that the canon is divinely guided in its creation is a created fiction to support political choices of governing religious administrators which tried to create a unified organization. Those are clearly understood as having happened just that way.

As far as myth in religion that gets really complicated. Mythology is a way to speak of transcendent truths, and I think people can understand myth within each religion in symbolic forms, rather than literal facts. So I would say it depends on the person how they understand the symbols, either as vehicles towards higher awareness, or seeing the symbols as actual things instead, seeing the symbols as signs.

 

[Ouroboros]

Being a follower or a disciple or an emulator of a teacher does not require them to be infallible. What the student would do would be to follow the examples of that Divine in the teacher, such as in any guru. The purpose is to realize that divinity in themselves, the way their master has in himself. He is a guide for them to find it in themselves.

Exactly!

The guru is the one holding a candle to the students path. The guru doesn't walk on the students path, he only lights it up so the student knows (by himself) were to walk.

Traditional Christianity is what takes Jesus and separates him from humanity by telling its membership that only Jesus could realize that, not any of them, and that Jesus has to do it for them as they are otherwise irreconcilably lost.

Yes, that's most definitely one of the problems with the modern Christianity. They're letting Jesus be the proxy for their own walk, and by doing that, they're not making the walk themselves. Jesus saved them. Jesus answers their prayers. Jesus do this. Jesus do that. Jesus is this for me. Jesus ... and forget that it's about the personal change. Become Jesus. That's the message. Die and be resurrected to your salvation, not by believing Jesus did it for you, but by believing that you can do the same.

I far prefer what Jesus says in the Gospel of Thomas verse 70,

Jesus said, "That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you."​

Amen.

 

[Ouroboros]

A better way to put it is the potential to realize our divine nature. Do I mean spirituality? Well, yes, but more than that. It's realizing our true identity. We already all fully have that. We just don't see it or act from that place.

"Not seeing" is what I'd call the "original sin." It creates a mental and emotional division in a person. That's the sin, if ever.

How does one realize it? By removing the obstacles that obscure it from us seeing it; seeing beyond the illusion of separation we create in our own minds, letting that become your true identity.

Which is "salvation". To die and live again.

 

[Windwalker]

"Not seeing" is what I'd call the "original sin." It creates a mental and emotional division in a person. That's the sin, if ever.

In a sense this is true. What is sin but falling short of God, or the Divine. What really is the fall of man, metaphorically speaking is waking up. As we are born we are fused with the divine, the ground unconcious. We are unaware, undifferentiated. We are asleep. Ignorant. Not one with, but unconcious.

As we develop self-awareness, we differentiate ourselves from the world, from one another. This is separation. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden, to use that myth. But we didn't fall from Divine Awareness and got cast out. No, we basically chose to wake up. We stood up and walked out. But that choice was towards knowing the world, knowing ourselves, and ultimately, knowing God. We fell from ignorance.

So are we born into "original sin"? In a sense, yes, because we awaken into our individuality. Salvation then, is Freedom from that separtation. But not in returning to unconscious ignorance, but awakening into the realization of the Divine within us! What a nobel creature man is! As Plotinus says, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." It's a precarius stage, and our attraction is not to sin, but to Union.

This is where I disagree with the pemismistic theologies of Christianity that we want to be in sin. We do not.

 

[Ouroboros]

In a sense this is true. What is sin but falling short of God, or the Divine. What really is the fall of man, metaphorically speaking is waking up. As we are born we are fused with the divine, the ground unconcious. We are unaware, undifferentiated. We are asleep. Ignorant. Not one with, but unconcious.

Very true. The seed of consciousness.

As we develop self-awareness, we differentiate ourselves from the world, from one another. This is separation. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden, to use that myth. But we didn't fall from Divine Awareness and got cast out. No, we basically chose to wake up. We stood up and walked out. But that choice was towards knowing the world, knowing ourselves, and ultimately, knowing God. We fell from ignorance.

To get knowledge becomes the method of reducing what's around us to its parts. Science, in other words.

So are we born into "original sin"? In a sense, yes, because we awaken into our individuality. Salvation then, is Freedom from that separtation. But not in returning to unconscious ignorance, but awakening into the realization of the Divine within us!

Exactly. Totally agree.

What a nobel creature man is! As Plotinus says, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." It's a precarius stage, and our attraction is not to sin, but to Union.

Basically reconnect to what's in front of us all the time, hidden in plain sight.

This is where I disagree with the pemismistic theologies of Christianity that we want to be in sin. We do not.

Right. And traditional religion is reinforcing the state of separation (sin) instead of bringing together. It's the yes that means no, the true that means false. And Jesus had something to say about that too.

 

[George-ananda]

Can anyone please clarify this:
There are many who claim the title ''Christian,'' yet deny the Divinity of Jesus. If Christian means disciple of Jesus Christ, and him, by inference, being a mere mortal with inherent traits such as fallability, why and how do you incorporate him in your faith? Should you not focus on God (the Father) only?

I think your confusion comes from the fact that the phrase you use 'Divinity of Jesus' is beyond conceptualization. What does that mean and how does He differ from the rest of us; nobody can wrap their head around something we can not conceptualize; hence the question of the 'Divinity of Jesus' can be discussed forever without conclusion.

Some Christians can love and follow Jesus and his message without understanding the 'Divinity of Jesus' question.

Your position that he was either 'Divine' or, in your words, 'a mere mortal with inherent traits such as fallibility' is looking at a complicated issue in too black and white terms.

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe this is largely because Jews didn't understand the meaning of the prophecies. The prophecies certainly point to the divinity of the Messiah.

Where?????

 

[Desert Snake]

What?? Are you believing you spoke as Jesus? Jesus had nothing to do with what books got selected to be included in the cannon. That is purely a mythological teaching of later bishops to make their choices somehow guided and sanctioned by God. Quite convient to simply say this.

This sin't a statement of fact, merely your opinion, so although it might "make sense according to you it doesn't make it fact or even backed up by Scripture.


OT or NT, it's all about backing up your opinions with Scripture, that's what your dealing with, otherwise one could just as well leave out Genesis because it is inconvenient to their point of view/beliefs.

 

[Windwalker]

This sin't a statement of fact, merely your opinion, so although it might "make sense according to you it doesn't make it fact or even backed up by Scripture.

Have you read any scholars regarding how the cannon of Scripture was formed? It's not my opinion, it's them stating the facts of history.

Besides, isn't this belief of yours that God guided the cannon of scritputres itself totally an opinion? At least I have scholarship on my side on this one.

OT or NT, it's all about backing up your opinions with Scripture, that's what your dealing with, otherwise one could just as well leave out Genesis because it is inconvenient to their point of view/beliefs.

Backing it up with whose interpretation of Scripture? Are you so naive as to believe when you read something, that's it, how you see it is what it means?

 

[Muffled]

Where?????

Isa 7:14 and isa 9:6.

 

[Desert Snake]

Have you read any scholars regarding how the cannon of Scripture was formed? It's not my opinion, it's them stating the facts of history.

Besides, isn't this belief of yours that God guided the cannon of scritputres itself totally an opinion? At least I have scholarship on my side on this one.


Backing it up with whose interpretation of Scripture? Are you so naive as to believe when you read something, that's it, how you see it is what it means?

This isn't coherent. What are you referring to.

 

[Windwalker]

This isn't coherent. What are you referring to.

Is that the only thing you can say when you're out of your league? There is nothing incoherent in what I am saying. You simply just don't grasp it. Just say that instead.

 

[Me Myself]

As pointed out, Jesus never called himself divine. or to be more fair, he never did so in a way that excluded anyone else's divinity. His only two claims of divinity are inclusive:I am as a name of God is as inclusive as you get ( we are all I ams) and when he was asked about saying he was a god by the pharisees he answered with scripture that said EVERYONE is God. His statements of being son of God are also inclusive giventhe rayer he taught us make us say OUR Father.

So what truly puzzles me is a Christian ignoring his own divinity. Which I find n bunches

 

[Me Myself]

This isn't coherent. What are you referring to.

While maybe what he said is not correct( and it would be in your side to argue so) I dont find any incoherences in his response. Maybe you can clarify it for us all?

 

[Desert Snake]

Is that the only thing you can say when you're out of your league? There is nothing incoherent in what I am saying. You simply just don't grasp it. Just say that instead.

Really? So who is grasping your incoherent statements?

BTW you didn't answer as to what you were referring to.

 

[Windwalker]

Really? So who is grasping your incoherent statements?

BTW you didn't answer as to what you were referring to.

Everyone but you. Why do you start a topic if you are unwilling or unable to discuss them? I don't mind that you don't understand certain things. I'm happy to help. But don't put your shortcomings on me. That just puts the spotlight on you.