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DMT the soul molecule

Leonardo

Active Member
Pretty much, yes. The biggest difference (and what makes neuroscience so frustrating) is that neural architecture isn't very modular.

Isn't very modular in what context, brain tissue doesn't form into tiny little squares? The modularity of the brain is evident in the various lobes, cortical specializations and the fact that those lobes interconnect with fiber tissues that act like very dense ribbon cables. Trans-cranial stimulation capitalizes on modularity of the brain to enhance learning. So the neural architecture is modular right down to the neuron as the basic processing unit. What most people don't get is the interconnectivity of neurons.

Put to you this way; digital computers interconnect bits through a bus, this bus traditionally is usually 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 or 128 bits wide. Through the bus is the information processed by the hundreds of millions of transistors in a CPU chip communicated to each transistor and external systems of a machine. When hundreds of millions of transistors have to inter-communicate through a narrow set of wires of a bus you can see how there are problems with bottlenecks of information. In fact all parallel processing systems suffer from phenomena known as diminishing returns. As you add more and more processing power you eventually reach a point where no further processing power improvement can be made, the relationship forms a U shape graph. The critical component of any parallel processing is the time necessary to communicate the results of the information that each processing unit performs and the energy consumption for each processing unit, the reason for the U shape graph. So for current CPU architectures because of the narrow bus widths the U shape is narrow and steep. The only way to widen and flatten the slope of the U graph is to improve the ability to communicate information across all processing units!

Now Compare this to a synapse that has up to ten thousand connections. This would be like allowing each CPU register to directly connect to ten thousand other processing units! Biological systems have solved the problem of the energy and information constraints of parallel systems by implementing a neural density to connectivity ratio that physically maximizes the width and flattening of the slope of the U curve. This is why a brain the size of an insect's can run circles around any CPU of today. With larger brains, as mentioned earlier, we find fiber tissues interconnecting cortical modules to link themselves together. These fibers are in the order of billions of transmission lines communicating information across each lobe. Nature has mastered the ability to modularize information processing using highly paralleled processing units by employing massive interconnectivity. The only best technology can obtain using classical approaches is removing the costs of cellular maintenance which would allow for a greater density of computational units and interconnectivity.

Note: the smallest transistor to date is only 7 atoms and if technology approaches parallel processing the way nature has, then silicon approaches will out compete biological systems very soon. :yes:
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't very modular in what context, brain tissue doesn't form into tiny little squares?
No.

The modularity of the brain is evident in the various lobes, cortical specializations and the fact that those lobes interconnect with fiber tissues that act like very dense ribbon cables.

Cortical specializations such as...? Broca's area and speech? Except that even such an oft cited example of specialization is an over-simplification, as Broca's area is involved in more than speech (see e.g., Maess, B., Koelsch, S., Gunter, T, & Friederici, A. D. (2001). Musical Syntax is Processed in Broca's Area: An MEG Study. Nature Neuroscience, 4, 540-545. ).

There is a reason why embodied cognition is such a big debate (with probably a majority now backing the theory): functional imaging and behavioral experiments suggest that conceptual processing is at its heart multimodal, so much so that even the most abstract concepts are represented across modalities such that there is not even an amodal, purely symbolic "core".


Trans-cranial stimulation capitalizes on modularity of the brain to enhance learning.

Right. And the support for this comes from...?

So the neural architecture is modular right down to the neuron as the basic processing unit.

The neuron likely isn't "the basic processing unit" most of the time, perhaps not at all.
First, not all neurons fire spikes, some fire bursts. Second, "The discussion to this point has focused on information carried by single neurons, but information is typically encoded by neuronal populations...Synchronous firing of two or more neurons is one mechanism for conveying information" (Theoretical Neuroscience, 2001, MIT press). Third, oscillating thesholds, spike latency, switching from in integrator to a resonator, and a lot of other things constitute the mechanisms of data transference. However, much more simplistically, you can think of the data not as a spike or burst itself, but the frequency of spikes. Very simplistically, one bit might be a spike train with a particular frequency, and another a different frequency. A lot of other things come into play, but the point is the single spike conveys on its own no information. Other neurons which receive the information respond to to the spikes but to things like the frequency of spikes in a spike train. That's (again, simplistically) the "bit."

What most people don't get is the interconnectivity of neurons.

Nobody gets it. It's an open question:
I guess the best way to answer the question about whether we know how a neuron works is to quote a monograph on the subject: "In every small volume of the cortex, thousands of spikes are emitted each millisecond...What is the information contained in such temporal pattern of pulses? What code is used by the neurons to transmit that information? How might other neurons decode the signal?... The above questions point to the problem of neuronal coding, one of the fundamental isssues in neuroscience. At present, a definite answer to these questions is not known." from Gerstner & Kistler's Spiking Neuron Models: Single Neurons, Populations, Plasticity (Cambridge University Press, 2002).


Put to you this way; digital computers interconnect bits through a bus.
And you need go no further. Because neurons, neural networks, and neural signals operate using fundamentally different principles than digital processors. Almost nothing about processing speed, online or long-term memory, or really anything which has to do with the functional limits (and the reasons behind them) of computers is related to similar issues in the brain. Hence the following (again):

From Manrubia, Susanna C.; Mikhailov, Alexander S.; Zanette, Damian H..(2004). Emergence of Dynamical Order : Synchronization Phenomena in Complex Systems. World Scientific Publishing Co., p 312:
"The biological “hardware” on which the brain is based is extremely slow. A typical interval between the spikes of an individual neuron is about 50 ms and the time needed to propagate a signal from one neuron to another is not much shorter than such an interval. This corresponds to a characteristic frequency of merely 100 Hz. Recalling that modern digital computers should operate at a frequency of 10^9 Hz and yet are not able to reproduce its main functions, we are lead to conclude that the brain should work in a way fundamentally different from digital information processing.

Simple estimates indicate that spiking in populations of neurons must be synchronized in order to yield the known brain operations. “Humans can recognize and classify complex (visual) scenes within 400-500 ms. In a simple reaction time experiment, responses are given by pressing or releasing a button. Since movement of the finger alone takes about 200-300 ms, this leaves less than 200 ms to make the decision and classify the visual scene” [Gerstner (2001)l. This means that, within the time during which the decision has been made, a single neuron could have fired only 4 or 5 times! The perception of a visual scene involves a concerted action of a population of neurons. We see that exchange of information between them should take place within such a short time that only a few spikes are generated by each neuron. Therefore, information cannot be encoded only in the rates of firing and the phases (that is, the precise moments of firing) are important. In other words, phase relationships in the spikes of individual neurons in a population are essential and the firing moments of neurons should be correlated."



If you read the above carefully, you'll realize that using bits and digital systems to understand "bottlenecks" in biochemical processing systems (particularly neural processors, like brains) is so worthless.

The critical component of any parallel processing is the time necessary to communicate the results of the information that each processing unit performs and the energy consumption for each processing unit, the reason for the U shape graph.
Actually, what's really important is understanding
1) what the neural "code" is
2) How often (if ever) a single neuron's spike train constitutes a "basic unit" (i.e., do the action potentials of a single neuron ever act like a "bit" and if so, when and why as well as why not)?
3) How is the brain so slow and yet so unbelievably fast?

The edited series Computational Neuroscience put out an edited volume in 2006 entitle 23 Problems in Systems Neuroscience. Each paper included was meant to address a specific, open, and fundamental question concerning neuroscience. All three of the above questions have at least one parallel in the volume. There is, for example, a paper entitled "How can the brain be so fast?", and several papers on different aspects of neural encoding/decoding (including "What is the neural code?").

Now Compare this to a synapse that has up to ten thousand connections. This would be like allowing each CPU register to directly connect to ten thousand other processing units!
It wouldn't, and isn't.


This is why a brain the size of an insect's can run circles around any CPU of today.
It can't.

With larger brains, as mentioned earlier, we find fiber tissues interconnecting cortical modules to link themselves together.
"fiber tissues"? A single neuron can have a dendritic tree connecting it directly to over 100,000 other neurons. In other words, one neuron can directly connect to over 100,000 other neurons. Likewise, their axons can run across the entire brain (or body) in some cases.

These fibers are in the order of billions of transmission lines communicating information across each lobe. Nature has mastered the ability to modularize information processing using highly paralleled processing units by employing massive interconnectivity.

Where is the modularity in all of this?
 

Leonardo

Active Member
I tried an increase dose of 2000 mg of Tryptophan, 500 mg of Kava Kava extract and 1000 mg of passion flower, so its twice the dose from the first time. The effect does create stronger images when eyes are closed and allows for more vivid lucid dreaming. Its an interesting trick, I'm not sure if its a means to synthesize DMT through the digestive system (that's what the other ingredients are for to protect any DMT synthesis from being broken down) but the effects are worth the small cost of the ingredients and they are legal. :D
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
I tried an increase dose of 2000 mg of Tryptophan, 500 mg of Kava Kava extract and 1000 mg of passion flower, so its twice the dose from the first time. The effect does create stronger images when eyes are closed and allows for more vivid lucid dreaming. Its an interesting trick, I'm not sure if its a means to synthesize DMT through the digestive system (that's what the other ingredients are for to protect any DMT synthesis from being broken down) but the effects are worth the small cost of the ingredients and they are legal. :D

Now, include some noopept, and get back to us ....It has a reputation for potentiating various compounds ... It takes at least a few days to really kick in. First day or two you may think you are wasting your time with it. Don't overdo it, more isn't better. Try 25mg twice a day, orally, as a starting point (10mg daily is enough for cognitive enhancement for many folk). You will thank me for this ! :yes:
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Interesting hypothesis and it would also explain prophetic experiences in other religions like the new testment's revelations, Ezekiel and Moses’ burning bush, also Mohammad’s claims of visions as well.

I'm doubtful of all of this. Concerning the evolutionary chain, as we progress further down the chain we have less need for psychodramatic effect therefore less need for spiritual revelation.

This can be observed in the notion that the dream drug "DMT" is already within us (like many others have said). If one needs to externally reinforce whatever drug is within them then maybe something should be said about the usage of the drug.

Take marijuana for example, the drug essentially releases chemicals that already within us (endocrine, dopamine, endorphins, etc etc.), the more you smoke it the more you need to get "high". The same goes for booze, acid, shrooms, and DMT.

Now, if there are any visions described as a prophetic experience then it must be questioned. What, in all of the worlds ideas and concepts, leads one to experience a "prophetic experience"? I ask this out of sincerity, because if only a few people are capable of having a "prophetic experience" yet everyone has the same chemicals and biological makeup then it doesn't really seem to balance out to me.

As for it being the soul molecule, I would have to disagree. DMT can be overused and eventually be depleted. The soul can be depleted, but it exists eternally so it cannot be completely eradicated or overused (unless there was some type of divine intervention, in which I may concede). But generally speaking I think the soul molecule can be find in areas of science that are just opening up to the search for unique sub atomic particles and neutrinos.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Also how are the effects of the brain under pyshcoldelic influence different than dream states or meditation?

One obvious difference - and probably the reason why the Buddha actually warned against the use of such substances way back then, as do all serious practicioners of meditation - is that ingesting a psychotropic makes your organism react to it. It is a response, a loss of control.

Meditation may well reach somewhat similar sensations, but the whole purpose of meditation is to learn to control such mental states, not to be carried away by them.

One of these days I will put in writing why I consider the use of psychoative drugs inherently immoral, regardless of any legal or even religious considerations.
 
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Noaidi

slow walker
One of these days I will put in writing why I consider the use of psychoative drugs inherently immoral, regardless of any legal or even religious considerations.
Luis, where do you stand, then, on the use of ayahuasca by South American shamans?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Luis, where do you stand, then, on the use of ayahuasca by South American shamans?

It is not only Shamans.

Ayahuasca, or "Santo Daime" as we call them, is actually legal in Brazil. There are actual churches based on it, loosely following the animistic-Christian mold. I have been inside one once.

I am, of course, 100% against its use. It looks like a regular allucinogenic to me. In any case, it is a psychoactive drug, which is enough for me to decide.
 

Noaidi

slow walker
It is not only Shamans.

Ayahuasca, or "Santo Daime" as we call them, is actually legal in Brazil. There are actual churches based on it, loosely following the animistic-Christian mold. I have been inside one once.

I am, of course, 100% against its use. It looks like a regular allucinogenic to me. In any case, it is a psychoactive drug, which is enough for me to decide.
Why, though?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Why, though?

Uh, because it is a psychoactive drug. That is all the reason I need. It is actually sort of an instintictive choice for me. Ever since I was a little boy I realized that mental clarity is one of my most valued possessions.



The way I see it, psychoactive drugs do, by definition, interfere with the nervous system and the thought and perception processes. That means losing at least some of the (strenously earned) control over those processes and divorcing them from my self-regulation mechanisms as well as from environmental stimulli.

Sounds just about as interesting as severing my arm from my body.


From a slightly less personal perspective, I see mental lucidity as a sort of natural resource, and the duty of protecting it as an inherent, very important one.

So very important, in fact, that I see is as the foundation of the personal responsibility and dignity. In a very literal sense, far as I am concerned people who use psychoactive drugs are giving up the right of being respect as human beings.

Tough, I know. But that is what I honestly feel to be the best, most constructive atittude towards the matter. So much so that to this day I struggle to truly accept that there are, in fact, others; knowing that it is so is quite different from accepting it.
 

Leonardo

Active Member
Uh, because it is a psychoactive drug. That is all the reason I need.

So very important, in fact, that I see is as the foundation of the personal responsibility and dignity. In a very literal sense, far as I am concerned people who use psychoactive drugs are giving up the right of being respect as human beings.

Your reaction is simply fear of the unknown. You're like some savage that's just witnessed a technology that he/she doesn't understand. You are out with your pitch fork and torch ready to storm Dr. Frankenstein's castle because as far as you're concern his work is that of the devil!

Most DMT experiences are remembered by the individual which means there is conscious control, an ability to sequence the hallucinations into meaning. The potential of harnessing the brains ability to create a virtual reality controlled by consciousness is a brave new world that was repressed in the sixties and continues to rattle the cages of the authorities that want to control what everyone is supposed to be and want and all in the name of protection and salvation. But that very same authority has no problems with an 18 yr old risking his or her life for no other reason than to keep oil prices high and the industrial war machine funded.

I used to be a religious person, catholic. The last day I was religious was when I made my first real sky dive. When I let go of holding on to the plane door way I knew I wasn't putting my faith in god but in technology, in man's knowledge. In those last few moments, seconds before hitting the ground, my faith was realized, and like an angel, wings spread from my back and I softly landed as if taking a small step from a stair case.

DMT is not for everyone, nor is sky diving...:cool:
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
One obvious difference - and probably the reason why the Buddha actually warned against the use of such substances way back then, as do all serious practicioners of meditation

Really ? I could name lots of " serious practitioners of meditation " who would totally disagree with you.

Are you aware for instance that it all incarnations of the dalai lama have manufactured 'mani pills' specifically for the cure of avidya (ignorance) ? These pills are made using psychedelic herbs available in Tibet (ersatz versions are given to the lay community during Mani Rimdu, and Wesak). Lamas told me that psychedelics are sometimes used to test whether students have arrived at real mental stability.

Have you read the Rig Veda,the original vedic text, which includes 114 verses in praise of soma ?

Have you read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, where it is specifically mentioned that siddhis may be attained through the use of drugs ?

I could give many other examples, such as Swami Muktananda, the great teacher of kriya yoga, and the Essenes (proto christians) who used psychedelic mushrooms as a sacrament - and countless other examples.

You have never tried psychedelics have you ? :sleep:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] "Bananas and plums abound in serotonin; so do figs, and among species of figs none is richer in serotonin than the ficus religiosa, known in India as the Bo tree, under which the Buddha reportedly sat when he became enlightened." [/FONT]

Good choice ! LOL
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Your reaction is simply fear of the unknown. You're like some savage that's just witnessed a technology that he/she doesn't understand. You are out with your pitch fork and torch ready to storm Dr. Frankenstein's castle because as far as you're concern his work is that of the devil!

Many people share your opinion about me.

For reasons I can't quite figure out, they fail to offer me an actual reason to reconsider my opinions, however. Maybe they can't?


Most DMT experiences are remembered by the individual which means there is conscious control, an ability to sequence the hallucinations into meaning.

That is not control. It is only an indication that DMT does not seem to cause memory loss. It would be control if he could cause the experience on his own and stop it as well.


The potential of harnessing the brains ability to create a virtual reality controlled by consciousness is a brave new world that was repressed in the sixties and continues to rattle the cages of the authorities that want to control what everyone is supposed to be and want and all in the name of protection and salvation.

Or maybe we don't like to damage our own brains? Or having people around who are so set on doing so that they want to skirt the law while at it?

Or, heck, maybe I actually know what happens with some people due to marijuana use?

The mind is fragile enough without intentional chemical interference to the brain, you know. I have zero interest in finding out how dangerous that would be.

If that makes me some sort of coward, then so be it. I have no interest in appeasing those who would judge me so, either.



But that very same authority has no problems with an 18 yr old risking his or her life for no other reason than to keep oil prices high and the industrial war machine funded.

Maybe they would, but there is hardly a causal correlation there.


I used to be a religious person, catholic. The last day I was religious was when I made my first real sky dive. When I let go of holding on to the plane door way I knew I wasn't putting my faith in god but in technology, in man's knowledge. In those last few moments, seconds before hitting the ground, my faith was realized, and like an angel, wings spread from my back and I softly landed as if taking a small step from a stair case.

DMT is not for everyone, nor is sky diving...:cool:

It doesn't follow that it should be tolerated, however.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Really ? I could name lots of " serious practitioners of meditation " who would totally disagree with you.

Are you aware for instance that it all incarnations of the dalai lama have manufactured 'mani pills' specifically for the cure of avidya (ignorance) ?

No, and I will be very surprised indeed if I find out that it is so. That would be a major strike against his tradition, even.


These pills are made using psychedelic herbs available in Tibet (ersatz versions are given to the lay community during Mani Rimdu, and Wesak). Lamas told me that psychedelics are sometimes used to test whether students have arrived at real mental stability.

What a shame. Even considering that they are supposedly around to deal with the consequences and avoid the greater dangers, it is still disgusting.

Maybe I should research and find out who those Lamas are. Not all of them are really reputable, and I want to be aware of who else to be in guard against.



Have you read the Rig Veda,the original vedic text, which includes 114 verses in praise of soma ?

Not really, but what you mean by that? I fail to see the connection.


Have you read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, where it is specifically mentioned that siddhis may be attained through the use of drugs ?

No, but that is no argument for their use anyway. That is just a statement that psychoactive drugs exist. I know that already.

Now, if you find out that they claim that it is safe or advisable to use such drugs... then I will be on guard against those Sutras, too.

It is really that simple. I wonder why so many people fail to understand that.



I could give many other examples, such as Swami Muktananda, the great teacher of kriya yoga, and the Essenes (proto christians) who used psychedelic mushrooms as a sacrament - and countless other examples.

The point being?


You have never tried psychedelics have you ? :sleep:

You are no doubt aware that the effects happen unintentionally to some degree even with too intense an intake of oxygen, so this is not a yes or no question.

I don't think I ever intentionally sought the effect, however. It is just not in me to do so, or to approve of that.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] "Bananas and plums abound in serotonin; so do figs, and among species of figs none is richer in serotonin than the ficus religiosa, known in India as the Bo tree, under which the Buddha reportedly sat when he became enlightened." [/FONT]

Good choice ! LOL

Serotonin? Presenting it as a psychodelic is really pushing it.

Anyway, let's just say that I would not feel that bothered if those fruits were outlawed. It would be odd, but not all that limiting. That some people go through the trouble of defying law to experience some substances is IMO quite telling, in and of itself.
 

Leonardo

Active Member
That is not control. It is only an indication that DMT does not seem to cause memory loss. It would be control if he could cause the experience on his own and stop it as well.

Ah...This was the whole point of the comparison of DMT to skydiving...Once you leave the plane there is no way to stop the experience. Like skydiving requires training and education to enjoy it and be safe so too for substances like DMT.

You're argument that DMT causes brain damage is baseless and the proof is in the religions that practice regular use of DMT, with even their children! No brain damage and no psychological damage...:)
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Quote from apophenia;

Are you aware for instance that it all incarnations of the dalai lama have manufactured 'mani pills' specifically for the cure of avidya (ignorance) ?
No, and I will be very surprised indeed if I find out that it is so. That would be a major strike against his tradition, even.

Read the original translation of Bardo Thodol (a.k.a. Tibetan Book of the Dead) by Evans-Wentz. You will find a footnote in there which verifies this - and remember, Evans-Wentz lived with the Tibetans for an extended period, enjoying the welcome and education of the lamas. His information is first-hand.

Also, Tenzin Gyatso publically announced that he had sent Leonid Brezhnev some of these very pills in 1982, in the hope of curing his avidya ! Brezhnev died a few weeks later. :rolleyes:

You clearly have no idea about the Tibetans.


[FONT="]Quote:apophenia
Have you read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, where it is specifically mentioned that siddhis may be attained through the use of drugs ? [/FONT]
[FONT="]Originally Posted by LuisDantas[/FONT]
[FONT="]
No, but that is no argument for their use anyway. That is just a statement that psychoactive drugs exist. I know that already.

Now, if you find out that they claim that it is safe or advisable to use such drugs... then I will be on guard against those Sutras, too.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Read Yoga Sutras, Book 4, verse 1.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Patanjali is not merely making " a statement that psychoactive drugs exist", he states outright that they are one of the means of spiritual attainment.
[/FONT]
So be on guard ! The Dalai Lama, Patanjali, and the authors of the Rig Veda are all 'disgusting' and 'immoral' ! :eek:

Quote: apophenia

Have you read the Rig Veda,the original vedic text, which includes 114 verses in praise of soma ?
Not really, but what you mean by that? I fail to see the connection.
You fail to see the connection ? 114 verses praising a mind-altering substance in the text which is the bedrock of sanatan dharma, and you fail to see the connection ? :facepalm:
 
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apophenia

Well-Known Member
Patanjali's yoga Sutras and the reference is highly debated. There is no doubt, some reference to it, but it is very unclear as to actual meaning. This ... Psychedelics in Light of the Yoga Sutras | Reality Sandwich gives a nice summary of the debate, and later commentaries by Vyasa, and modern Gurus.

I wonder if this debate existed prior to US drug policy in the 1930s ?

Can you point to any evidence of this text being questioned prior to that ?

And what of the references to soma in the Rig Veda ? Is that highly debated also ?
 
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