DMT the soul molecule

[apophenia]

In the article (first time I've read that article as well) it said Vyasa, I think, who was later than Patanjali, commented on it. As far as other debate goes, its just conjecture. In India, as far as I know, there wasn't that much scholarly debate going on at all - at least not on this topic. I think the debates all got going again in the 60s.

Yes, references to soma are also highly debated, and as usual with any debate, a pre-existing bias tends to influence how scriptures are interpreted, and how the individual debaters go about it. As for soma, I've heard it argued as metaphor like elixir of life, or something internal, as well as an actual substance.

Me personally, I take the stance of 'I don't know' and just use my intuition to decide for myself, thinking, perhaps falsely, that nobody knows, without judging either way. I do listen to my own Guru on the matter though. That's what Gurus are for, no?

Sure. My gurus (Tibetan) were fine with psychedelia. And alcohol, and marijuana.

I have found Patanjali's sutra to be correct, without any need for apologies.

Obviously, extreme and foolish use of anything is to be avoided. Some teachers even warn of excessive, obsessive attachment to meditation and the dhyanas.

It is possible to hyperoxygenate and experience extreme altered states - but I doubt there is debate about the morality of oxygen.

 

[apophenia]

...Vyasa, I think, who was later than Patanjali, commented on it.

Uh huh. But Patanjali's statement is crystal clear.

As far as other debate goes, its just conjecture. In India, as far as I know, there wasn't that much scholarly debate going on at all - at least not on this topic. I think the debates all got going again in the 60s.

Debate by Americans, due to American drug policy, which spread to other western countries. .... and we see to where that has led. There was no significant 'drug problem' until the problem was manufactured by US drug policy. There was however considerable use of drugs by many societies, usually for spiritual and community-oriented purposes, and without social or medical problems.

So I guess the answer to my question is - this was not 'highly debated' in India. The debate is in the context of the views and legislation coming from Harry Anslinger - a corrupt fruitcake if there ever was one.

Yes, references to soma are also highly debated, and as usual with any debate, a pre-existing bias tends to influence how scriptures are interpreted, and how the individual debaters go about it.

Debated by whom ?

As for soma, I've heard it argued as metaphor like elixir of life, or something internal, as well as an actual substance.

Well, my reading of it leaves no doubt as to what is intended. It is instantly recognisable.

"Have I been drinking soma ? " - Rig Veda

( :yes: )

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah...This was the whole point of the comparison of DMT to skydiving...Once you leave the plane there is no way to stop the experience. Like skydiving requires training and education to enjoy it and be safe so too for substances like DMT.

Skydiving does not involve introducing foreign psychoactives into your system, though.

You're argument that DMT causes brain damage is baseless and the proof is in the religions that practice regular use of DMT, with even their children! No brain damage and no psychological damage...

Are you serious?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well then you must despise most of the American population during Prohibition of alcohol as well...:sarcastic

I think I have told already that I am not much too worried about the legality of drugs, but rather on their psychic effects.

 

[LuisDantas]

You fail to see the connection ? 114 verses praising a mind-altering substance in the text which is the bedrock of sanatan dharma, and you fail to see the connection ?

Yep, I do fail to see the connection.

I would need to know the context, for one thing. For another, what is soma anyway?

 

[Father Heathen]

Here you go: Erowid DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) Vault

Hope this helps.

 

[Leonardo]

Are you serious?

Yes, why Santo Daime can use DMT in the US. Inclusive of giving it to their kids!

Skydiving does not involve introducing foreign psychoactives into your system, though.

No, it only involves exiting a perfectly good air plane where if things don't go right the person WILL DIE!

 

[Leonardo]

Here you go: Erowid DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) Vault

Hope this helps.

Great site, thx.

 

[apophenia]

quote from Leonardo
You're argument that DMT causes brain damage is baseless and the proof is in the religions that practice regular use of DMT, with even their children! No brain damage and no psychological damage...

Are you serious?

Yeah, he's serious.

It was also common practice in central America for whole families to take psilocybe mushrooms together. Mum and dad, the grandparents, the kids, all tripping together.

Why do you assume this would cause damage ?

What is the biology behind that assertion ?

 

[LuisDantas]

People have been using alcohol for perhaps longer than Ayahuasca. That is hardly "proof" that it is safe, either.

If you can't see that, there is no point in trying to convince you.

 

[apophenia]

People have been using alcohol for perhaps longer than Ayahuasca. That is hardly "proof" that it is safe, either.

If you can't see that, there is no point in trying to convince you.

If you want to convince me of something - provide some real data.

I have known for a long time that tobacco and alcohol account for 99% of all deaths attributed to drugs.

Tobacco -75%
Alcohol - 24%

Everything else (heroin, meth,cocaine, prescription drugs and every other kind of drug) - 1%
( Ayahuasca 0% as far as I know)

This information comes from the World Health Organisation, and the health authorities here in Australia give the same figures.

Ayahuasca has been used for millenia. I have never heard of any deaths caused by it. Have you ?

In fact, do you have any evidence of any harm caused by it ? Any harm ?

Any evidence at all ?

If so, why don't you present it ?

So far you have just expressed disgust and ranted about immorality, but you have provided nothing of substance at all, nor added anything of value to this thread.

We know you don't like it. Just because... ummm ... ahhhh... just because !
But you have utterly failed to present anything but your own aversion and lack of knowledge.

Do you actually have anything meaningful to say ? Because just repeating that it disgusts you is tedious, repetitive and pointless.

Mind you, that is about all we ever hear from the 'war on drugs' crowd.

So please, as they say in England, pee or get off the pot !

 

[LuisDantas]

Believe what you will, Apophenia. You have your mind set and I can't very well protect you from that.

Best of luck.

 

[apophenia]

Oh my god.

Whatever.

No data or evidence , just another empty posture with the veneer of compassionate goodwill .

Typical.

 

[Father Heathen]

People have been using alcohol for perhaps longer than Ayahuasca. That is hardly "proof" that it is safe, either.

If you can't see that, there is no point in trying to convince you.

I have the occasional beer, yet without tragic consequence. The secret? Responsibility and moderation. Not only that, unlike alcohol, many of the substances that have been discussed clearly have positive benefits.

Set the emotional, presumptuous knee-jerk reaction aside and approach the subject objectively and rationally.

 

[Father Heathen]

Believe what you will, Apophenia. You have your mind set and I can't very well protect you from that.

Best of luck.

Oh, the irony. It is you who wallows in willful ignorance. You couldn't substantiate your argument and you failed to do your research.

 

[LuisDantas]

You really don't understand where I come from, now do you?

 

[Leonardo]

You really don't understand where I come from, now do you?

I do, its purely from fear of what you don't understand.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Ayahuasca has been used for millenia. I have never heard of any deaths caused by it. Have you ?

In fact, do you have any evidence of any harm caused by it ? Any harm ?

Any evidence at all ?

Doesn't Ayahuasca contain an MAOI? If so, then it's pretty much confirmed to be dangerous.

Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Leonardo]

Doesn't Ayahuasca contain an MAOI? If so, then it's pretty much confirmed to be dangerous.

Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LOL, Have you seen the list of what has MAOIs, better stop drinking coffee and many teas:

List of MAOIs

Herbal Drugs
Selective MAO-A Inhibitors
Harmala alkaloids (found in Coffee,[27] Syrian rue,[28] Passion flower, Ayahuasca, Tribulus terrestris and Tobacco)
Harmine, Harmaline, Tetrahydroharmine, Harmalol, Harman, Norharman, etc.
Piperine[29] (found in Pepper has a 1.85 fold selectivity for MAOA over MAOB)
Resveratrol[30] (found in Japanese knotweed and skin of red grapes)
Nonselective MAO-A/MAO-B Inhibitors
Curcumin[31] (found in Turmeric)
Rhodiola rosea[32] (active constituent(s) unknown)
Ruta graveolens[33] (active constituent(s) unknown)
Ginkgo biloba[34]
Anthocyanins[35]
Proanthocyanidin[36]
Selective MAO-B inhibitors
Catechin (found in the Tea plant, Cocoa, and Cat's claw)
Desmethoxyyangonin (found in Kava)
Epicatechin[37] (also found in the Tea plant, Cocoa, and Cat's claw)
Emodin[29] (found in Fo-Ti)
Hydroxytyrosol (found in Olive oil)
Gentiana lutea[38] (active constituent(s) unknown)
Unknown Selectivity
Liquorice (active constituent(s) unknown)
Myristicin (found in Nutmeg, Parsley, and Dill)
Siberian Ginseng (active constituent(s) unknown)
Yerba Mate (active constituent(s) unknown)
Yohimbe (active constituent(s) unknown)
Pharmaceutical Drugs
Nonselective MAO-A/MAO-B Inhibitors
Hydrazines
Benmoxin (Nerusil, Neuralex)
Hydralazine (Apresoline)
Iproclozide (Sursum)
Iproniazid (Marsilid, Iprozid, Ipronid, Rivivol, Propilniazida)
Isocarboxazid (Marplan)
Isoniazid (Laniazid, Nydrazid)
Mebanazine (Actomol)
Nialamide (Niamid)
Octamoxin (Ximaol, Nimaol)
Phenelzine (Nardil, Nardelzine)
Pheniprazine (Catron)
Phenoxypropazine (Drazine)
Pivalylbenzhydrazine (Tersavid)
Procarbazine (Matulane, Natulan, Indicarb)
Safrazine (Safra)
Non-Hydrazines
Caroxazone (Surodil, Timostenil)
Echinopsidine (Adepren)
Furazolidone (Furoxone, Dependal-M)
Linezolid (Zyvox, Zyvoxam, Zyvoxid)
Tranylcypromine (Parnate, Jatrosom)
Selective MAO-A Inhibitors
Brofaromine (Consonar)
Metralindole (Inkazan)
Minaprine (Cantor)
Moclobemide (Aurorix, Manerix)
Pirlindole (Pirazidol)
Toloxatone (Humoryl)
Selective MAO-B Inhibitors
Lazabemide (Pakio, Tempium)
Pargyline (Eutonyl)
Rasagiline (Azilect)
Selegiline (Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Emsam)
Research Compounds
Nonselective MAO-A/MAO-B Inhibitors
Hydrazines
Metfendrazine
Selective MAO-A Inhibitors
Amiflamine
Bazinaprine
Befloxatone
Befol
Cimoxatone
Clorgyline
Esuprone
Methylene Blue
Sercloremine
Tetrindole
Thesputiaint
CX157 (Tyrima)
Selective MAO-B Inhibitors
D-Deprenyl
Ladostigil
Milacemide
Mofegiline
Antiparasitic
Invertebrate MAO Inhibitors
Amitraz antiparasitic used in animals for ticks, mites (sarcoptes, demodex) and lice. Used on plants as an insecticide against mites, aphids, etc.

 

[mycorrhiza]

LOL, Have you seen the list of what has MAOIs, better stop drinking coffee and many teas:

List of MAOIs
-long list-

I guess I should be more specific: Isn't there a quite strong MAOI in Ayahuasca?