No and people have been using it for so long without any health risks. As I mention many times, the Santo Daime give Ayahuasca to infants with no negative side effects what so ever!
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DMT the soul molecule
- Thread starter Leonardo
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No and people have been using it for so long without any health risks. As I mention many times, the Santo Daime give Ayahuasca to infants with no negative side effects what so ever!
mycorrhiza
Well-Known Member
From what I've heard it takes preparation, so that you don't risk damage from mixing the MAOI with various foods and medicines (in the same way that mixing alcohol with certain medicines is dangerous). The DMT itself is probably quite harmless physically (it can bring on several mental issues, though, such as derealization), but I would really need some scientific studies backing up your argument before I can believe that the MAOI in Ayahuasca is guaranteed to be harmless.
To me it sounds like the arguments cannabis users come with, claiming that cannabis is completely harmless. Nearly no drugs are harmless, not even caffeine.
And giving it to infants seems really stupid.
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apophenia
Well-Known Member
Yes, ayahuasca is a mix of DMT and a substance which is an MAO inhibitor. DMT is not orally active by itself because MAO-B destroys it almost instantly. That is why ayahuasca requires two substances, one containing DMT, and one containing an MAO inhibitor.
That doesn't make it dangerous, except under very specific circumstances. Tribulus terrestris, a herb commonly used as a supplement by people who train (because it raises testosterone) also contains various harmalines which are MAO inhibitors. That doesn't make it dangerous. It is used every day by millions of very healthy people - healthier than average people in fact.
Many substances, including many antidepressants, are MAO inhibitors. They are taken on a daily basis. Ayahuasca is not something which people take daily, so any effects of MAO-B inhibition are transient.
It could be dangerous if mixed with other compounds which either raise MAO or catecholamines, because the interaction could lead to excessive levels of serotonin for example. Also there could be interactions caused by foods high in tyramines.
So it would be unwise to use ayahuasca while taking prescription antidepressants.
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mycorrhiza
Well-Known Member
I would say that all the strong MAOIs are dangerous, including the antidepressants as an overdose or a mixing can cause stuff like serotonin syndrome.
I'm not trying to claim that psychedelics in general are physically dangerous, because that would be going against what scientists say on the matter, but it seems like the MAOI content could make it dangerous when severely overdosed or mixed with other substances.
Ayahuasca can be mentally harmful too, if the person using it can't handle it. The same goes for most other drugs, though, including alcohol. We can't only count the physical harm.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
I agree. I wouldn't be messing with the brain chemistry of children unless there was a compelling reason to do so. Sometimes there is - despite the over-prescription, many children do get real benefit from ADD medications for example.
There are societies which do (or at least did) take psychedelics in family groups. But, they did this on rare occasions. See Michael Harner's book " Hallucinogens and Shamanism (Oxford University Press 1973)" for more info - particularly the essay 'Mushrooms of Language'.
And you are right, there are down-sides to any drug if it is abused. The same can be said of any food. Obesity is now a leading cause of death, killing way more people than drugs. So sugar and fat are very dangerous substances.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
I agree with your points.
But it is madness trying to legislate against every possible form of harm. Cars kill people, food kills people, falling in love causes severe emotional and psychological harm ...
People cope fine with good education. And there will always be people who get harmed by things which most people have no problem with (should skateboards be banned ?)
mycorrhiza
Well-Known Member
Sugar and fat do have a tendency to be dangerous, yes. Too many people are stuck in sugar and fat addiction.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
On that point - religions and various non-mainstream cults can lead to psychological harm. And to extremely dangerous anti-social activity which totally eclipses the harm caused by caffeine or DMT.
The same can be said for various political ideas.
Is the right approach to ban all religious and political activity because some people are harmed by it ?
The same can be said for various political ideas.
Is the right approach to ban all religious and political activity because some people are harmed by it ?
mycorrhiza
Well-Known Member
I haven't claimed that we should legislate against it.
If the drug is only mildly damaging then it should be legal, but strictly controlled in a similar manner to how alcohol is where I live. It would need a big warning label though, because of the MAOI.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
In other words - freedom is dangerous. Life is dangerous. It is not made safer or more pleasant by attempting to impose control on every level of behaviour.
What does help is real education, and the freedom to communicate with one another.
Experiments with children and nutrition are a good example of this. Left to choose from any food available for two weeks,young children will arrive at a balanced diet without any coercion.
That experiment has been repeated many times. Toddlers and young children may pig out on chocolate and sweets for a day or two, but their own innate intelligence, and physical sensations, cause them to eventually arrive at a balanced diet in the total absence of control from adults, when all types of food are freely available.
Coercion and control bend people's minds out of shape, and are far more damaging than the freedom to discover truth and balance, which will occur quite naturally.
The idea that someone must be controlling and micro-managing us is a lie, and cause of massive human suffering, propagated by the most antisocial and psychopathic humans.
What does help is real education, and the freedom to communicate with one another.
Experiments with children and nutrition are a good example of this. Left to choose from any food available for two weeks,young children will arrive at a balanced diet without any coercion.
That experiment has been repeated many times. Toddlers and young children may pig out on chocolate and sweets for a day or two, but their own innate intelligence, and physical sensations, cause them to eventually arrive at a balanced diet in the total absence of control from adults, when all types of food are freely available.
Coercion and control bend people's minds out of shape, and are far more damaging than the freedom to discover truth and balance, which will occur quite naturally.
The idea that someone must be controlling and micro-managing us is a lie, and cause of massive human suffering, propagated by the most antisocial and psychopathic humans.
Ya know your argument would be stronger if you had the same concern of the MAOI in coffee or teas, but you don't. Why? Because coffee is consumed everyday without any serious consequences. What you don't realize is that Ayahuasca has been taken for centuries regularly without any serious consequences. So when you claim giving it to an infant is stupid why don't you have the same concern for kids that drink Coke? Its your western perspective that psychedelics are evil and harmful.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
On that point - Dr Albert Hoffman, the man who first synthesized LSD, took a daily dose of 10mcg of LSD for decades until his death at age 102.
This was very beneficial, because LSD is a vasodilator and so has very positive effects on peripheral circulation, keeping tissue oxygenated and healthy.
102 !
LSD every day !
And he was sharp as a tack right up to the end. Dangerous ?
That is a picture of the good doctor on his 100th birthday.
.
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mycorrhiza
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure the MAOI in Ayahuasca is stronger, otherwise people could just pour a bit of DMT in their cup of morning coffee and trip out, but it doesn't sound like that would work. Caffeine is harmful. Just because it isn't noticeable with just a few cups (unless you have heart problems) doesn't mean that it isn't harmful.
Kids shouldn't have coke, nor should they have coffee or tea. Chocolate is allowed, as theobromine has less side-effects and is present in much smaller quantities. You must look at the mental effects of the drugs too. Do you think kids can handle strong hallucinogens? I sure don't.
I have nothing against psychedelics, but as DMT is consumed together with a strong MAOI it is potentially dangerous. As I'm interested in biology I have read about many of the psychedelic plants and mushrooms, and I know that they are quite harmless physically. If we're only talking about physical harm, then psychedelics are some of the least harmful drugs, but we must look at their mental effects too. No one is going to get derealization from having a piece of chocolate.
mycorrhiza
Well-Known Member
I'm claiming that DMT is dangerous because it contains a strong MAOI, not because it's a psychedelic. LSD is basically physically harmless. Still potentially mentally harmful, though, as some people can't handle it.
Any recommend source? I found one in powdered form 1 gm for 9.29 but the others in pill form are much more, $22 and up. I also read a review on Amazon of the powdered form having the same effects as a Gaba rush which makes me a little suspicous that the powder might be cut with Gaba. Your thoughts?
Strangely: The movie "The Matrix" Neo was given two choices the red pill, where he'd realize the truth, or the blue pill, where he would remain in ignorance. Where the authorities of the Matrix fought tooth and nail to prevent anyone in the Matrix from knowing the truth. This is so much like the attitude many nations take toward psychodelics, what do they really fear?
Does anybody remember the 80's movie ALTERED STATES?
Sometimes I wonder, and think to myself, maybe we're not so unlucky and have to struggle to solve our problems. Maybe we've answered all our questions about the universe and out the boredom of knowing everything we decided to forget everything! But being a smart species, we chose not to let go of anything. Could it all be an illusion we created?...
Does anybody remember the 80's movie ALTERED STATES?
Sometimes I wonder, and think to myself, maybe we're not so unlucky and have to struggle to solve our problems. Maybe we've answered all our questions about the universe and out the boredom of knowing everything we decided to forget everything! But being a smart species, we chose not to let go of anything. Could it all be an illusion we created?...
apophenia
Well-Known Member
Strangely: The movie "The Matrix" Neo was given two choices the red pill, where he'd realize the truth, or the blue pill, where he would remain in ignorance. Where the authorities of the Matrix fought tooth and nail to prevent anyone in the Matrix from knowing the truth. This is so much like the attitude many nations take toward psychodelics, what do they really fear?
Does anybody remember the 80's movie ALTERED STATES?
Sometimes I wonder, and think to myself, maybe we're not so unlucky and have to struggle to solve our problems. Maybe we've answered all our questions about the universe and out the boredom of knowing everything we decided to forget everything! But being a smart species, we chose not to let go of anything. Could it all be an illusion we created?...
Come on, it's not that hard to understand.
Just look at those crazy videos showing the LSD experiments performed by different armies around the world in the mid 1960s.
The military discovered that LSD could unravel the brainwashing and 'discipline' (funny word that) of hardened professional soldiers in a matter of minutes. LSD was internationally outlawed, even to researchers, within months.
That scared the bejeezus out of them. And the churches. And the politicos of every persuasion. That is why everyone was after Timothy Leary - Interpol, the CIA, the Black Panthers, the Weather Underground ... every group with a missionary manifesto of some kind or another, be it political or religious, was threatened by the idea that their reality would be undermined and seen to be arbitrary conditioning.
Add to that the fact that "there is nothing that so upsets the bishop as a saint in the parish", and it is easy to see that the real issue is the maintenance of conditioning and beliefs - and of course the elites who are the institutionalisation of those beliefs.
Humans are born with a blank slate, behaviourally speaking. Social cohesion is based on artificial and almost arbitrary norms. Look at what happens when humans are raised by wolves ... and it has happened.
It doesn't really matter what the particular morals and mores of a society are - what matters is that they are consistent across the population. This is still true in complex multicultural societies - the members learn to negotiate the interactions of the various subgroups.
Look at what you can learn here on RF - humans believe all kinds of stuff ! And they take it very seriously. Any fool can see that there are so many varieties of belief, that the issue is not 'what is true'. The issue is 'am I a member of a society ?'
I have noticed, as have many here on RF, that the debates about 'insulting Islam' really highlight the fact that cultural bonding can be a life and death issue for people in cultures dominated by a single monolithic belief system. In such cultures, where non-conformity means death, any challenge to the belief, or disrespect for it, produces a state of murderous rage.
The famous experiments of Milgram and Zimbardo proved that modern westerners can be manipulated by conditioned societal pressures to the extent of committing murder, or claiming that a circle is a triangle (and subsequently needing psychiatric treatment).
Shared values, perceptions and beliefs equate to survival - it's a pack-bonding thing.
Psychedelics can shatter the arbitrary belief systems which are regarded as 'reality itself' by the believers - and I do not just mean religious belief. There is the whole range of morals, politics, economics and even perceptions/interpretations of time and space, which come under the general heading of conditioned responses.
The fear of psychedelia is the fear of realising that. The idea that there is no 'ultimate reality', in the sense of perceptual and behavioural norms, terrifies many people.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
LOL There's no way back...
And apropos to the discussions about the 'dangers' of such things, I have spent 2% (conservative estimate) of my entire 57 year lifespan in the 'red' zone, using 12 hours as a unit of calculation.... Of course I have been using a legal version .... And that excludes herbal 'relaxants', which would push the percentage up to closer to 50%.
I am happy to report that I still score over 130 in most IQ tests, and also that I just completed a fitness analysis which showed that I have the metabolism of a 17 year old ! Recently I began doing handstand pushups as part of my training regime... every year as I approach 60, I am getting stronger and more flexible, thanks largely to yoga ( which I began at 52 ), and to the capacities of visualisation which I have developed, and apply to my health. So, as a lama once said to me "You can even be happy in hell if you're smart".
I'm sure these facts will annoy the crap out of those who believe (and even hope ) that my lifestyle would leave me a wasted and brain-damaged wreck.
Hail Eris !
Om ah hum vajra guru Padma siddhi hum
BTW ... there may be one falsehood in this post. Then again, there may not.:sarcastic
And apropos to the discussions about the 'dangers' of such things, I have spent 2% (conservative estimate) of my entire 57 year lifespan in the 'red' zone, using 12 hours as a unit of calculation.... Of course I have been using a legal version ...
. And that excludes herbal 'relaxants', which would push the percentage up to closer to 50%.I am happy to report that I still score over 130 in most IQ tests, and also that I just completed a fitness analysis which showed that I have the metabolism of a 17 year old ! Recently I began doing handstand pushups as part of my training regime... every year as I approach 60, I am getting stronger and more flexible, thanks largely to yoga ( which I began at 52 ), and to the capacities of visualisation which I have developed, and apply to my health. So, as a lama once said to me "You can even be happy in hell if you're smart".
I'm sure these facts will annoy the crap out of those who believe (and even hope ) that my lifestyle would leave me a wasted and brain-damaged wreck.
Hail Eris !
Om ah hum vajra guru Padma siddhi hum
BTW ... there may be one falsehood in this post.
Then again, there may not.:sarcasticI'm sure these facts will annoy the crap out of those who believe (and even hope ) that my lifestyle would leave me a wasted and brain-damaged wreck.
The interesting aspect of pyschodelics is the effect of mind state on those that use it. Mind state is influenced by environment (cultural and geographic) and geneics. Its interesting that aboriginal societies interpreted the experience with pschodelics as a pathway to a spiritual world. During the hey day of the sixties the experience was a chaotic concopheny of colors and warped images, leading to emotional states that inspired sexual and brotherly love, anti-war and anti-establishment ideologies. Supposed experiments by the CIA using LSD in small town in France, Pont-Saint-Esprit, caused the population to suffer from mass insanity and hallucinations. If it was LSD that caused the sudden on set of the towns afflictions why were the trips bad while in other cultures the effects were positive? The obvious answer is the psychodelics were given to unsuspecting participates. Imagine being unaware of being under the influence of LSD and suddenly seeing your reality melt down! You have no frame of reference to deal with what you're experiencing.
I mention before that psychodelics could be a technology to control virtural modeling using the human brain. The experiences of the population of Pont-Saint-Esprit gives some insight as to that possiblity. The unsuspecting person experiencing an LSD trip can't rationalize their experience which causes a panick attack, from there the trip can just get worse as the psychodelic allows the brain to manifest those fears from themes of frighting theologies. That is a form of control, albeit from a subconcious level. If the mind set is prepared for the psychodelic experience what are the limits of the experience? Preparing for the psychodelic requires starting off with small doses and building up to a more intense experience. But once you find yourself in your own realm using psychodelics commanding the path or theme of the experience may very well be possible.
CIA experiments in the small French village Pont-Saint-Esprit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bread-spiked-with-LSD-in-CIA-experiment.html