Do any Christians disagree with this...

[Zhakir]

(unless due to a VERY RARE coincidence)

You finally get to amit Allah is just congratulations!
But they aren't coincidences or rare
48:28
It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religions ; and Allah is enough for a witness.

Yes Allah is enough for a witness,but we humans also witness,Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and will be the largest.
Good luck!.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Holdem I have been thinking about something concerning this, and you and I seem to have OK discussion, so what do you think about this.
At some point in time science even says we all came from the same origin, geographically. Correct? Like from Africa or Mesopotamia, or something like that.
So at one point all living souls were uner the same land, and as a result under the same advantage to either here a teaching or not here a teaching right?
So to look at the point you are trying to make may just be a mute point after all. If at one time all had equal access to whatever was being taught before people went to other land masses, than it is safe to say that there was an equal chance.
So today now that we are all spread around, we can see that many people chose to change God to whatever seemed right, or whatever they remembered, but at one time, they were most likely under the same idea.
Do you see where I am going with this. Anyway I just thought it was an interesting angle.

 

[Draka]

I'm going to give another chance to address what I said, though am not optimistic for an actual reply as Zhakir has proven himself inept at following a rational line of thought in this thread.

Zhakir, you're full of it. If everyone had an equal chance to believe in Islam then everyone would be presented with its beliefs and tenets from a very early age, right along with every other religion on the face of the planet...to make it EQUAL (a word I don't think you really understand). However that is not the case is it? Put it this way, before I came to this forum I had never been exposed to any information about Islam, let alone personally talk with someone who is Muslim. Therefore, I have not had an EQUAL chance to be Muslim, and I still don't as I am simply not as exposed to it as I am other religions in order to gain knowledge about it and make a determination as to whether it makes more sense to me than those other religions I do have knowledge about. I can't just simply CHOOSE to believe in something when i don't know all the facts about it just because someone says it is right. Belief just doesn't work that way. I could no more CHOOSE to believe in Islam because you say it is right than you could just CHOOSE to believe in Wicca just because I say it is right. One must have information. Not everyone has information about every religion...no matter how you want to believe everyone knows enough about yours to just drop everything else they know and believe in it. Hence, if I were to die right now I will have died without an equal chance to believe in Islam as compared to Christianity or Wicca or other forms of Paganism I have been exposed to. And had I died BEFORE coming to RF I would have had NO chance of becoming Muslim as I had NO knowledge or experience of it whatsoever.

Your argument falls flat. As does the flip version of it from some Christians here.

And again, in regards to the claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S. :

And you know that is a lie fueled by propaganda right? Percentage wise, that is simply not the case. And do you know how many religions claim that? If a religion has a large base of numbers but has a small percentage of growth and another religion has a small base of numbers but has a large percentage of growth, then for a while, the religion with a large base of number will appear to be growing very fast, but in reality the smaller religion is the faster growing one. Islam has a very small percentage of growth when compared to just about any Pagan religion. Did you know that? So you might want to check your figures again and do some math.

Oh, and I love how my previous post was completely ignored by you because it proved you wrong. Nice ignoring there. Wouldn't want you to deal with facts and logic now would we? Which is probably why this post will also be ignored.

These previous posts of mine have gone woefully disregarded. I can only assume, Zhakir, that you know I'm right and haven't one thing to say to debate what I'm saying. Is that the case? You know I'm right and therefore refuse to embarrass yourself by addressing my points?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Hi I guess I would offer you the same post I made just above your. I think it is an interesting angle to think about this.

 

[Draka]

Hi I guess I would offer you the same post I made just above your. I think it is an interesting angle to think about this.

Nope, still absurd. It still does not, in any way account for the fact that not everyone has the same equal chances of believing certain religions. You cannot, in any way, shape or form convince anyone that someone born into a native tribe in the Amazon has as much chance of being a Baptist as someone raised in Georgia, U.S. You cannot substantiate that someone born in South Korea has the same chance of being a Muslim as someone born in Saudi Arabia. You cannot honestly claim that someone born in Israel has the same chance of being LDS as someone born in Utah.

Geographical location, culture, societal influences, family, and education have more weight upon religious followings than, it seems, some here want to admit. In fact...those things have everything to do with religious identification of individuals. Even if one is not born in or raised in an atmosphere condusive to following a certain religion there still is chance of conversaion, yes, but conversion does not happen without ample information. A person who knows nothing of Christianity doesn't just wake up one morning and become a Christian without convincing information...and quite simply, not everyone in the world is privy to all the necessary information to make such a decision in their lives. Period. Therefore,...not everyone gets an equal chance in this world to be any religion. some have greater chances, and some have lesser chances, and some...yes...even have no chance. To deny this fact is to deny reality in favor of delusions.

 

[Zhakir]

You know I'm right and therefore refuse to embarrass yourself by addressing my points?

I'm not sure i can reply with out breaking Allah's law
6:108
Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring toeach people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.
16:125
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

But you are making a good statment along with misunderstandings.

if I were to die right now I will have died without an equal chance to believe in Islam as compared to Christianity or Wicca or other forms of Paganism I have been exposed to. And had I died BEFORE coming to RF I would have had NO chance of becoming Muslim as I had NO knowledge or experience of it whatsoever.

If this is your point then you didn't read my first post
ME:

If any one doesn't hear about Allah's word till death, then he is not a message rejecter he will never go to hell.
All verses of the Quran say kafirs (=message rejecters)will go to hell.

and
Quran 4:97-98

When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men willfind their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! -
Except those who are (really) weak and oppressed - men, women, and children - who have no means in their power, nor (a guide-post) to their way.

Now you know about Allah's message as most people since the 7th century,do what you want.

 

[HoldemDB9]

You finally get to amit Allah is just congratulations!
But they aren't coincidences or rare
48:28
It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religions ; and Allah is enough for a witness.

Yes Allah is enough for a witness,but we humans also witness,Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and will be the largest.
Good luck!.

Zhakir I really need yuo to answer this just so I know where you stand...

If everyone on the planet had an equal chance to become Muslim, then (unless due to a VERY RARE coincidence) there would be the same percentage of Muslims in every country on the planet.

Do you agree with that above statement? Is it true or false?

 

[Zhakir]

Then Darka, in the whole world (at least) what is the fastest growing religion ?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem I have been thinking about something concerning this, and you and I seem to have OK discussion, so what do you think about this.
At some point in time science even says we all came from the same origin, geographically. Correct? Like from Africa or Mesopotamia, or something like that.
So at one point all living souls were uner the same land, and as a result under the same advantage to either here a teaching or not here a teaching right?
So to look at the point you are trying to make may just be a mute point after all. If at one time all had equal access to whatever was being taught before people went to other land masses, than it is safe to say that there was an equal chance.
So today now that we are all spread around, we can see that many people chose to change God to whatever seemed right, or whatever they remembered, but at one time, they were most likely under the same idea.
Do you see where I am going with this. Anyway I just thought it was an interesting angle.

It does not matter if everything started out equal, the point is that everything is not equal at this moment in time.

A child born in India does not have the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA. How ever this came about to be, is totally irrelevant. The point is that it is unfair on that child born in India.

 

[Zhakir]

Zhakir I really need yuo to answer this just so I know where you stand...

If everyone on the planet had an equal chance to become Muslim, then (unless due to a VERY RARE coincidence) there would be the same percentage of Muslims in every country on the planet.

Do you agree with that above statement? Is it true or false?

You red my answer.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Now you know about Allah's message as most people since the 7th century,do what you want.

Why don't you understand that just by hearing the message, things are not automatically equal? How don't you understand this? Its really not that hard.

Do you even realize the unbelievably obvious fact that not all chances have to be equal? This should not have to be explained, its to god dam obvious.

A child born in America has a chance to accept Allah, this I am not denying. What I am saying is that this child has a smaller chance to accept Allah, than a child born in Saudi Arabia. You understand that? They have a chance, but it is not an equal chance.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Nope, still absurd. It still does not, in any way account for the fact that not everyone has the same equal chances of believing certain religions. You cannot, in any way, shape or form convince anyone that someone born into a native tribe in the Amazon has as much chance of being a Baptist as someone raised in Georgia, U.S. You cannot substantiate that someone born in South Korea has the same chance of being a Muslim as someone born in Saudi Arabia. You cannot honestly claim that someone born in Israel has the same chance of being LDS as someone born in Utah.

Geographical location, culture, societal influences, family, and education have more weight upon religious followings than, it seems, some here want to admit. In fact...those things have everything to do with religious identification of individuals. Even if one is not born in or raised in an atmosphere condusive to following a certain religion there still is chance of conversaion, yes, but conversion does not happen without ample information. A person who knows nothing of Christianity doesn't just wake up one morning and become a Christian without convincing information...and quite simply, not everyone in the world is privy to all the necessary information to make such a decision in their lives. Period. Therefore,...not everyone gets an equal chance in this world to be any religion. some have greater chances, and some have lesser chances, and some...yes...even have no chance. To deny this fact is to deny reality in favor of delusions.

Draka calm down, we are friends here. Holdem and I have discussed this in length, and have come to an agreemant between each other about this. I will go over what I said with him if I can summarize it.

You are correct 100% that a label of a christian, or baptist, or muslim, or aboriginal, are all very specific to the climate in which they bread readily. I do not dispute that. I know some will, but they just don't have any common sense.
The problem with your view point is the bible (not denominations or church institutions) teaches that God will save someone even if they are not exposed to the bible. For example, if a boy in India is at his respective lesson for the day for Hinduism, he may be thinking about flying a kite, often as boys do in a service of their religion. However the bible teaches that as long as an individual has the inherant laws of God on their heart, these individuals are capable of salvation to heaven.
So this child in Indian if he has the laws in his heart, even though he is studying or being exposed to another religion, he can still be saved. Only God knows our hearts, and that is how he saves, at least according to the bible.
Now, all I am asking you to do, is to make sure when you are positioning yourself for the point you are making, do so by not saying it is against the bible.
I make it a GREAT point to distibguish the bible and ANY church claiming to teach the bible.
By this reasoning, you should clearly see all people have an equal chance to be saved by the God of the bible. Even an aborignal in the wilderness or desert.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It does not matter if everything started out equal, the point is that everything is not equal at this moment in time.

A child born in India does not have the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA. How ever this came about to be, is totally irrelevant. The point is that it is unfair on that child born in India.

Holdem I don't believe it! I thought we had come to an agreemant, that ... well please read my latest post to draka.
I guess I give up...

 

[Draka]

I'm not sure i can reply with out breaking Allah's law
6:108
Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring toeach people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.
16:125
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

But you are making a good statment along with misunderstandings.

If this is your point then you didn't read my first post
ME:

and
Quran 4:97-98

Now you know about Allah's message as most people since the 7th century,do what you want.

First off, you seem to think that just throwing a few verses at someone is enough for them to make a conscience belief choice in the first place. Quoting something to me does nothing as to truly informing me of all the aspects and beliefs of Islam. It appears that you believe that as long as someone has heard OF god that that should be enough. That if they have heard OF Allah then that is enough to condemn them for not believing. Besides, wasn't it you that has been going on and on about everyone having an equal chance of being muslim? Either "believing or not"? If you can admit that not everyone gets a chance to hear a "message" then you ADMIT that not everyone gets an EQUAL chance to be Muslim! If you can admit to the possiblility that someone can die without ever knowing this "message" then you ADMIT that some people never got ANY CHANCE to know Islam...let alone an EQUAL chance!

 

[HoldemDB9]

You red my answer.

I read your reply, but it was not an answer. Just a simple yes or no, please answer. If you've already answered then it should not be hard, please just answer...

If everyone on the planet had an equal chance to become Muslim, then (unless due to a VERY RARE coincidence) there would be the same percentage of Muslims in every country on the planet.

Do you agree with that above statement? Is it true or false?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem I don't believe it! I thought we had come to an agreemant, that ... well please read my latest post to draka.
I guess I give up...

Yes, we did have an agreement, we still do. I don't see how what I said goes against that agreement. Didn't you agree that it is possible for a non-Christian to enter heaven?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You two are arguing a mute point. Don't you get it??? You are both correct. Only as far as labels are concerned.
However the bible is unique, in that it does not require anything from you to be saved or made into a christian. You are both arguing against man made ideas about the bible, and as such you are both correct. Anyone arguing that a national sport like soccer in England and baseball in the US, that the children growing up have an equal chance to do either, or the probability is equal that they would play soccer or baseball are just arguing idiocy.
All religions that you are making your point against, fall into this "soccer" category. The bible does not. It is outside the scope because it says you do not have to be anywhere or anyplace special to become a christian, God will go anywhere and read an individuals heart. It is not what we are exposed to or around. We could be sitting in a tummy in the mother about to give birth in Saudi Arabia, and the baby can be saved.

 

[Draka]

Draka calm down, we are friends here. Holdem and I have discussed this in length, and have come to an agreemant between each other about this. I will go over what I said with him if I can summarize it.

You are correct 100% that a label of a christian, or baptist, or muslim, or aboriginal, are all very specific to the climate in which they bread readily. I do not dispute that. I know some will, but they just don't have any common sense.
The problem with your view point is the bible (not denominations or church institutions) teaches that God will save someone even if they are not exposed to the bible. For example, if a boy in India is at his respective lesson for the day for Hinduism, he may be thinking about flying a kite, often as boys do in a service of their religion. However the bible teaches that as long as an individual has the inherant laws of God on their heart, these individuals are capable of salvation to heaven.
So this child in Indian if he has the laws in his heart, even though he is studying or being exposed to another religion, he can still be saved. Only God knows our hearts, and that is how he saves, at least according to the bible.
Now, all I am asking you to do, is to make sure when you are positioning yourself for the point you are making, do so by not saying it is against the bible.
I make it a GREAT point to distibguish the bible and ANY church claiming to teach the bible.
By this reasoning, you should clearly see all people have an equal chance to be saved by the God of the bible. Even an aborignal in the wilderness or desert.

I wasn't upset at you, just explaining my viewpoint. and I never said anything was against the bible either.

If you believe that god judges everyone based on their actions and what's in their hearts, regardless of their specific beliefs and that is how you say everyone has an equal chance to get to heaven, that's fine. However, the point I, and Holdem, have been making is not specifically about equal chances to get to heaven, but equal chances to be Christian or Muslim or whatever when some people claim that god/allah will only accept Christians/Muslims or whatever into heaven. It deals with excluvisity. If you believe that everyone gets an equal shot at heaven, great, that follows logic and common sense when considering this world and claiming a loving god. However, some are claiming that god will only allow Christians in heaven and the same with Muslims about Allah. That's where this whole thread got its basis from. The fact that some certain people on this forum outright made the claim that ONLY Christians make it to heaven and that everyone in the world had an EQUAL chance to be a Christian. Which is a lie.

 

[HoldemDB9]

You two are arguing a mute point. Don't you get it??? You are both correct. Only as far as labels are concerned.
However the bible is unique, in that it does not require anything from you to be saved or made into a christian. You are both arguing against man made ideas about the bible, and as such you are both correct. Anyone arguing that a national sport like soccer in England and baseball in the US, that the children growing up have an equal chance to do either, or the probability is equal that they would play soccer or baseball are just arguing idiocy.
All religions that you are making your point against, fall into this "soccer" category. The bible does not. It is outside the scope because it says you do not have to be anywhere or anyplace special to become a christian, God will go anywhere and read an individuals heart. It is not what we are exposed to or around. We could be sitting in a tummy in the mother about to give birth in Saudi Arabia, and the baby can be saved.

I really really like your analogy of the soccer/baseball example, that shows EXACTLY what me and Draka are trying to say. I will use that from now on.

Yes I completely get what you are saying. But there are Christians who disagree with you, who say that all do get an equal chance to become Christian. These are the Christians we are arguing against, not you. *Edit, and make sure to read Draka's reply above, she said it better than I can.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Than I say to both of you Draka and Holdem, that you need to be careful when defining christian. Because Drake you just said the christians claim you have to be a christian to get into heaven. That statement is true, BUT what is it to be a crhistian. That is where discussion leads back to the bible. To be a christian is simply to have to laws of God in your heart, as stated in the book of Romans. As a result, if you have these laws in your heart and God saves because of that, you are a christian. See what I mean? This is different than a christian that claims you have to do x, y, and z to become a chrstian. Because you then fall right back into the category of unequality. That is not what the bible teaches, so it is up to you guys to learn more about the bible if you are interested, or just continue discussing this with christians that are only representing the x,y,z doctrine.
Remember Jesus came and fulfilled the law, he became everything for us. So the power of Jesus, is the same power that would be in the boys heart in india, that may be learning Hinduism. In his heart he has it all figured out, but outwordly he may be learning about Hindu or whatever.