Do any non-theists think being Gay is wrong?

[Seven]

how did you get that from what i wrote?:no: obviously being a homophobe is a choice. im saying that most christians who are against homosexuality, probably use their religion as an excuse. while others really think its wrong based on the religion. tho i could be wrong

Sorry, I didn't really think you believed that, but I couldn't resist making the joke
I would say that homophobia is learned. I'm not aware of any non religious people teaching it.

 

[Green Gaia]

there is no reason to be prejudiced towards homosexuals other than homophobia, religious dogma is just a convienient excuse, they want to bash gays. if they didnt, they wouldnt

Yes.... and no. I agree that people are responsible for their own actions and they alone choose how to treat others. BUT where did the idea come from in the first place that there is something wrong with being gay? I don't want to turn this into a religion-bashing thread, but I do think it's an important step in healing the wounds to get a grasp on where these notions come from in the first place.

I have not actually done this, but my guess would be if you went up to any ordinary person on the on the street and asked, "is homosexuality wrong?" and let's say that person responded, "yes, it is wrong". You ask why is it wrong? "I dunno, because that's what the Bible says it is." You then ask where in the Bible, and what exactly does it say? "I dunno. I just know it says homosexuality is wrong."

It's ingrained in our culture because religion, and specifically Christianity, is so ingrained in our culture. People who don't even go to church on a regular basis can tell you the Bible says homosexuality is wrong and baby Jesus was born in a manger. That's what we're up against overcoming. In most cases, it not outright life-threatening homophobia (although, that does happen far too often), but the subtler things that are so pervasive that people don't even know they're there until someone points them out.

So like I said before, I'm sure there are some non-theists who think homosexuality is wrong and I would be very interested in hearing their reasons for believing that way.

Gah! Sorry if I've gone too far off topic, Buttons. (I'm procrastinating doing my Economics homework, lol)

 

[Green Gaia]

or it could be their just homophobes, i dont think being non-theist makes you more likely to be open to gays. but i do think being a theist makes it less likely. homophobes are gonna be homophobes regardless

True, but it has been my experience that most people in our culture are raised as theists. So, most of the people who later reject theism do so after analyzing the world around them and realizing their experiences do not fit in with what they were taught to believe as a theist. I would assume, (and hope), they also analyze what they were taught to believe about other people and reject or retain those beliefs based on their own experience, reflection and study. If one does this, I cannot think of one single reason, (a non-religious reason), why someone would retain the belief that homosexuality is wrong. But, maybe someone will surprise me and come up with something.

 

[JMorris]

True, but it has been my experience that most people in our culture are raised as theists. So, most of the people who later reject theism do so after analyzing the world around them and realizing their experiences do not fit in with what they were taught to believe as a theist. I would assume, (and hope), they also analyze what they were taught to believe about other people and reject or retain those beliefs based on their own experience, reflection and study. If one does this, I cannot think of one single reason, (a non-religious reason), why someone would retain the belief that homosexuality is wrong. But, maybe someone will surprise me and come up with something.

i wasnt raised as a theist by my parents. i grew up around kids telling me about that kind of stuff, but i thought it was weird

 

[JMorris]

i used to wonder if homosexuality was a sort of mental disorder. i never thought it was something that needed treating, but at the time i thought heterosexuality was the only natural thing. until i learned about gay monkeys but yea, this was when i was younger, i thought it was unnatural because how else would we reproduce? i dont think this anymore, its the only non-theist related reason to be against homosexuality, but its not something i consider anymore

 

[Green Gaia]

i used to wonder if homosexuality was a sort of mental disorder. i never thought it was something that needed treating, but at the time i thought heterosexuality was the only natural thing. until i learned about gay monkeys but yea, this was when i was younger, i thought it was unnatural because how else would we reproduce? i dont think this anymore, its the only non-theist related reason to be against homosexuality, but its not something i consider anymore

All obvious questions someone would ask who has only been exposed to heterosexuals. So it becomes the responsibility of gay folks to "come out of the closet" and be seen and heard. It then falls to society to be factual and truthful to our young ones about homosexuality. Yes, there are gay people. Yes, can they have children too, just perhaps in a different way. Yes, they can fall in love and be committed (married) to one another. (I'm trying really hard to stay away from value judgments, such as "it's a good or bad thing" - if a religion wants to teach that, I believe that is their right to do so, but I also believe that society as a whole as an obligation to ALL it's members to factual and fair) - does that make sense?

 

[tumbleweed41]

All obvious questions someone would ask who has only been exposed to heterosexuals. So it becomes the responsibility of gay folks to "come out of the closet" and be seen and heard. It then falls to society to be factual and truthful to our young ones about homosexuality. Yes, there are gay people. Yes, can they have children too, just perhaps in a different way. Yes, they can fall in love and be committed (married) to one another. (I'm trying really hard to stay away from value judgments, such as "it's a good or bad thing" - if a religion wants to teach that, I believe that is their right to do so, but I also believe that society as a whole as an obligation to ALL it's members to factual and fair) - does that make sense?

Couldn't frubal you again, get to it later.
You are absolutely correct.:clap

 

[Storm]

Queer religious non-theist here, and I think it's fine.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

The Dalai Lama does.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

or it could be their just homophobes, i dont think being non-theist makes you more likely to be open to gays. but i do think being a theist makes it less likely. homophobes are gonna be homophobes regardless

That's what I've figured as well, but it just occurred to me that if that's the case, then we'd expect homophobes to be more evenly distributed across the belief spectrum, wouldn't we?

The Dalai Lama does.

Good point. Homosexuality is considered incompatible with "Right Action" by many Buddhists, a large proportion of whom are non-theistic.

 

[gnomon]

That's the question. I wonder if faith is directly responsible for disliking homosexual activity in general. If you are a non-theist, do you see anything wrong with homosexuality? If you are a theist and want to participate: if you were a non-theist would you have a problem with homosexuality?

Be honest.

Non-theist, irreligious, non-spiritual.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality. I know this.

Personally I think all religious beliefs, even those that are neutral or positive towards homosexuality, are inadequate when it comes to understanding human sexuality.

 

[Buttons*]

So do we think that some people are homophoic simply becuase they think it's, in Gaia's words, "Icky" or do we think that homophobia would not exist if it weren't for religion?

In past cultures, *thinking Greek* it was ok, and even a statesman's (citizen's) right, duty, and honor to have a boy student under them, who he would occasionally screw to help him in his teachings. I don't really get that practice, and I'm not sure that it's a good thing either... but still it's odd isn't it? Greeks were also heavily religious. So I don't think homophobia existed there.

 

[JMorris]

the greek gods were pretty much superhumans, but still very human. they werent really any better than people. i think the reason why homophobes arent more evenly distributed among theists and non-theists is because religion is someting that validates their prejudice. were a person accepting of gays might never be part of theism, or leave it for these reasons, a homophobe will find his prejudice reinforced and be more inclined to become more theistic. does that make sense? im not sure i explain things right....sometimes i think the things i say come out wrong

as far as the dalai lama, Buddhism is still a very male dominated religion, so that might explain that.

 

[Seven]

I think homosexuality was also a bit of a non issue in Rome, which was a stew of religious belief.
It's certainly not the case that religion always leads to homophobia - it's just that homophobia can always be traced back to a religious doctrine.

At least that's true of all the homophobia I've come across. If someone in this thread demonstrates otherwise I'll eat my words:eat:

 

[Green Gaia]

It was also a non-issue in some Native American groups as well, and even welcomed and/or celebrated. There was definitely not a world-wide ancient ban on homosexuality.

 

[JMorris]

so for the most part, the general attitude towards homosexuality among non-theists is rather indifferent? by that i mean, we dont really care if people are homosexuals. am i right?

 

[genypher]

so for the most part, the general attitude towards homosexuality among non-theists is rather indifferent? by that i mean, we dont really care if people are homosexuals. am i right?

Among the ones I know, yes.

I would say that the only people who believe there is an inherent wrongness in homosexuality, so much so that homosexuals should be persecuted, are the ones with a religious doctrine against it. That's not to say f these religions or philosophies didn't exist there wouldn't be at least some degree of homophobia in the world, there just wouldn't be any moral mandate against it.

 

[JMorris]

Among the ones I know, yes.

I would say that the only people who believe there is an inherent wrongness in homosexuality, so much so that homosexuals should be persecuted, are the ones with a religious doctrine against it. That's not to say f these religions or philosophies didn't exist there wouldn't be at least some degree of homophobia in the world, there just wouldn't be any moral mandate against it.

agreed

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The Dalai Lama does.

Yes and no. He has stated before (I think over 10 years ago) that he believed that homosexual acts could be considered sexual misconduct, but by no means has he put out a blanket statement condemning homosexuality. If anything, his views concerning homosexuals have softened quite a bit.

If he did condemn it, I would have to write a letter to him giving him a piece of my mind.

And for the record, the DL has also recently offered statements about sex in general. In his defense, he is speaking from the POV of a celibate monk.

 

[Karl R]

About 15 years ago I was involved in an extensive internet debate with an atheistic Russian (who had been raised in the atheistic USSR) about homosexuality.

He claimed that it was possible to prove that homosexuality was wrong using non-theistic philosophies like Immanuel Kant's categorical imperitive. (I claimed that it was possible to easily shoot his arguements full of holes ... but that's a different story.)