Do atheists believe in Justice?

[Estro Felino]

The money changers in the Temples were Roman.

It was a natural reaction from the Hebrew perspective to be extremely offended to have Roman money changers in the Temple. This action on the part of Jesus likely brought him to the attention of Rome as a rebel.

Interesting. What does the nationality of these people have to do with the meaning of Jesus' deeds and His speech about Justice?

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe in the Torah God directly violated human Free Will

I am a Christian so I interpret the Old Testament differently.

 

[shunyadragon]

Interesting. What does the nationality of these people have to do with the meaning of Jesus' deeds and His speech about Justice?

The obvious violation of the Temple would be considered sacrilege by non-Jews particularly Romans. Consider the relationship of the the Hebrews with occupying Romans. The belief in the expectation of the Hebrews would be the restoration of the Hebrew Nation and the overthrow Roman rule. The penalty for rebellion against Rome is crucifixion,

 

[Estro Felino]

The obvious violation of the Temple would be considered sacrilege by non-Jews particularly Romans. Consider the relationship of the the Hebrews with occupying Romans. The belief in the expectation of the Hebrews would be the restoration of the Hebrew Nation and the overthrow Roman rule. The penalty for rebellion against Rome is crucifixion,

The Gospel is very clear, and speaks of "den of thieves".
But I respect your interpretation as a "Non-Christian". It contradicts the Gospels, though.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am very interested in your opinion and feedback.

Let's assume Jesus was just a man like anyone else. Any atheist can acknowledge that.
What do you think of what he did in this video?

I won't watch videos about a hypothetical Jesus.

 

[Stevicus]

No.
If He had had the power to violate people's free will, He would have saved His only begotten Son from crucifixion.

Well, He did intervene in the politics of Egypt and Israel when He parted the Red Sea and led the Israelites to freedom. So, at least it would suggest that God has the ability to change worldly justice, since Scriptures would indicate that He has done so in the past.

And, at least according to what is written in the story, the Crucifixion seems to be a complete set-up by God, with Jesus cooperating with the plan. Then, there were various stories of miracles, including the miracle of the Resurrection itself, which would also indicate God's direct interference and intervention in Earthly matters.

In any case, no one's free will would have had to be violated in order to save His only begotten Son from crucifixion. Jesus had plenty of willing followers, and he could have started a revolution and an uprising against Roman rule if he wanted to. Think of it: A revolutionary army commanded by Jesus, who has the power to conjure up fish and loaves out of thin air and heal any sickness or disease. An army travels on its stomach, and more soldiers died from disease than from actual battle, yet Jesus would have had both of those problems resolved instantly. He would be able to lead a truly formidable fighting force which could have made short work of the Roman legions.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, He did intervene in the politics of Egypt and Israel when He parted the Red Sea and led the Israelites to freedom. So, at least it would suggest that God has the ability to change worldly justice, since Scriptures would indicate that He has done so in the past.

The problem with the Old Testament is a bit more complex.

And, at least according to what is written in the story, the Crucifixion seems to be a complete set-up by God, with Jesus cooperating with the plan. Then, there were various stories of miracles, including the miracle of the Resurrection itself, which would also indicate God's direct interference and intervention in Earthly matters.

But if this had been true, He would have awarded Pilate, Judas and Caiaphas with Heaven. For cooperating with the plan.
Whereas the Catholic tradition pictures them in Hell. The all three.

In any case, no one's free will would have had to be violated in order to save His only begotten Son from crucifixion. Jesus had plenty of willing followers, and he could have started a revolution and an uprising against Roman rule if he wanted to. Think of it: A revolutionary army commanded by Jesus, who has the power to conjure up fish and loaves out of thin air and heal any sickness or disease. An army travels on its stomach, and more soldiers died from disease than from actual battle, yet Jesus would have had both of those problems resolved instantly. He would be able to lead a truly formidable fighting force which could have made short work of the Roman legions.

If God had the power to stop wicked people from doing evil, or to force followers to do revolutions, there would be no wars, no murders, no abuses of power. This planet would be a Paradise.

 

[Stevicus]

The problem with the Old Testament is a bit more complex.

Perhaps, but it's still part of the Scripture and details instances where God intervened in Earthly justice.

But if this had been true, He would have awarded Pilate, Judas and Caiaphas with Heaven. For cooperating with the plan.
Whereas the Catholic tradition pictures them in Hell. The all three.

How does the Catholic Church know where they ended up? It could be that they were awarded with Heaven for doing what God wanted them to do, as part of fulfilling His plan. If Pilate is sent to Hell for imposing capital punishment, then wouldn't that apply to every government or church official who has sentenced someone to death?

If God had the power to stop wicked people from doing evil, or to force followers to do revolutions, there would be no wars, no murders, no abuses of power. This planet would be a Paradise.

He doesn't have to force followers to do revolutions, but if people do rise up for the sake of freedom and justice, God can always give them a helping hand from up on high.

 

[Estro Felino]

How does the Catholic Church know where they ended up? It could be that they were awarded with Heaven for doing what God wanted them to do, as part of fulfilling His plan.

That's our Catholic interpretation. Thomas of Aquinas and many others say Judas is in Hell...and since he is in Hell, so must Pilate and Caiaphas.

If Pilate is sent to Hell for imposing capital punishment, then wouldn't that apply to every government or church official who has sentenced someone to death?

Immensely. Definitely.
Have you ever read the Divine Comedy? Inferno is filled with Catholic churchmen...that is, church officials. And many popes, of course.

Being a pope doesn't save you from Hell.

He doesn't have to force followers to do revolutions, but if people do rise up for the sake of freedom and justice, God can always give them a helping hand from up on high.

A helping hand is against free will.
Free will means we determine our future because we decide who we are and we are completely autonomous from God.
Then He will judge us.

 

[GoodAttention]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

I think it is more informative if I re-write your words into mine.

Justice - a legal principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder), they must be sentenced for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code). In such cases and in certain jurisdictions the death penalty can apply.

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

It is the same justice as capital J justice. Not a perfect system.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.

If a Supreme God can judge actions not taken and sufferring not intended then a Supreme God they must be.

And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Life isn't fair. Fake justice mixes with spiritual justice so that it is impossible to separate the two.
Therefore there is no justice, since there is no power that can separate the wicked from among the just.

Thank you all for your kind answers.

You are most welcome.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think it is more informative if I re-write your words into mine.

Justice - a legal principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder), they must be sentenced for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code). In such cases and in certain jurisdictions the death penalty can apply.



It is the same justice as capital J justice. Not a perfect system.


If a Supreme God can judge actions not taken and sufferring not intended then a Supreme God they must be.


Life isn't fair. Fake justice mixes with spiritual justice so that it is impossible to separate the two.
Therefore there is no justice, since there is no power that can separate the wicked from among the just.


You are most welcome.

Interesting, thank you.
So you rely on worldly justice.
May I ask you what you think of this lawyer? She discovers that her own client has deceived her all the time, by lying about certain frauds his wife would have committed. So she decides to get revenge on him. She secretly hands over the evidence of this plan to frame his wife to the wife's lawyer, and that she abandons the gentleman before the judge.
Then she quits the firm where she worked with her husband, saying that she won't work with cheaters and deceivers. Those who manipulate justice to win a case.



https://www.tiktok.com/video/7354647359927684385

 

[GoodAttention]

Interesting, thank you.
So you rely on worldly justice.
May I ask you what you think of this lawyer? She discovers that her own client has deceived her all the time, by lying about certain frauds his wife would have committed. So she decides to get revenge on him. She secretly hands over the evidence of this plan to frame his wife to the wife's lawyer, and that she abandons the gentleman before the judge.
Then she quits the firm where she worked with her husband, saying that she won't work with cheaters and deceivers. Those who manipulate justice to win a case.



https://www.tiktok.com/video/7354647359927684385

This lawyer willingly causes sufferring for her client and potentially her husband and her colleagues. She also brings her profession into disrepute, highlighting that they, as the agents of justice themselves, are unreliable and selfish. Her moral awakening for wanting to do good in the long-term does not outweigh her determination for revenge and the sufferring it causes.

I understand shes Italian but there wasn't a need for all that passion. The English version of the same story would be very different.

 

[Estro Felino]

This lawyer willingly causes sufferring for her client and potentially her husband and her colleagues. She also brings her profession into disrepute, highlighting that they, as the agents of justice themselves, are unreliable and selfish. Her moral awakening for wanting to do good in the long-term does not outweigh her determination for revenge and the suffering it causes.

A man who wants to divorce his wife and falsely accuses her of embezzlement, just to give her nothing after the divorce, well...doesn't deserve to be respected or defended by his own attorney.
The profession of lawyer is to serve truth and justice. Not to manipulate the judicial system out of greed.

I understand she's Italian but there wasn't a need for all that passion. The English version of the same story would be very different.

But that's a movie. Want to see real world passion from an Italian attorney?

 

[GoodAttention]

A man who wants to divorce his wife and falsely accuses her of embezzlement, just to give her nothing after the divorce, well...doesn't deserve to be respected or defended by his own attorney.
The profession of lawyer is to serve truth and justice. Not to manipulate the judicial system out of greed.

Promoting a false claim would have been illegal, and it was her duty as a lawyer to serve that truth to her client before court, not during. Who is to say that the husband doesn't take a different path? Unfortunately he was not given the opportunity to do so. It is the lawyer who, as her final act in the profession, manipulates the court system herself by renouncing her role as her client's lawyer and providing evidence of the false claim to the court itself, washing her own hands of any responsibility.

But that's a movie. Want to see real world passion from an Italian attorney?

I would love to see the world through her eyes for one day!

 

[Estro Felino]

Promoting a false claim would have been illegal, and it was her duty as a lawyer to serve that truth to her client before court, not during. Who is to say that the husband doesn't take a different path? Unfortunately he was not given the opportunity to do so. It is the lawyer who, as her final act in the profession, manipulates the court system herself by renouncing her role as her client's lawyer and providing evidence of the false claim to the court itself, washing her own hands of any responsibility.

I respect your opinion. I really do.
I am different. I cannot help it. If I were a criminal attorney and my client confessed to a murder to me, I would record the conversation and send it to the prosecutor anonymously.
Then I would renounce the defense, as the attorney of the video did.
Justice and Truth above all.

I would love to see the world through her eyes for one day!

That's very nice.

 

[GoodAttention]

I respect your opinion. I really do.

You are too kind.

I am different. I cannot help it. If I were a criminal attorney and my client confessed to a murder to me, I would record the conversation and send it to the prosecutor anonymously.
Then I would renounce the defense, as the attorney of the video did.
Justice and Truth above all.

You could certainly advise them to plead guilty if you were convinced of their guilt, and if wouldn't then do what every lawyer does which is give them a ridiculous bill that you know they can't afford and they become someone else's problem!

How do you see confession and the sacramental seal being invoilable?

 

[Estro Felino]

He doesn't have to force followers to do revolutions, but if people do rise up for the sake of freedom and justice, God can always give them a helping hand from up on high.

I can suggest to watch this short scene. The blonde woman with glasses is God.
This scene always makes me weep. It's about free will.