Do atheists believe in Justice?

[vulcanlogician]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

I am an atheist who believes in (capital "J") Justice. But I don't see it as a "spiritual" principle. To me it is a rational principle, based upon a rational morality.

And I also see justice (gonna use lowercase from now on) as something that encompasses a far greater range of valuations-- not just criminal penalty and law. For instance, when someone makes sacrifices to do the right thing and is recognized as doing such by those around her-- that is also justice. For instance, if someone was caught trying to help Jews escape Nazi Germany and was arrested and executed for their "crimes," that would NOT be justice. Even if, in such an instance, the person HAD knowingly broken an "on the books" law.

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

I don't think that a "worldly notion" of justice isa fake. However, we probably agree that justice in the world is often poorly executed. Murderers can sometimes go free (and I'd agree with you that that is a failure of justice) but so too is it unjust not to have rights for the accused. Because if the accused don't have rights, then you won't have any justice at all.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

I don't think life is fair. I think we need to work hard and and fight to make our world more just.

 

[Estro Felino]

I am an atheist who believes in (capital "J") Justice. But I don't see it as a "spiritual" principle. To me it is a rational principle, based upon a rational morality.

And I also see justice (gonna use lowercase from now on) as something that encompasses a far greater range of valuations-- not just criminal penalty and law. For instance, when someone makes sacrifices to do the right thing and is recognized as doing such by those around her-- that is also justice. For instance, if someone was caught trying to help Jews escape Nazi Germany and was arrested and executed for their "crimes," that would NOT be justice. Even if, in such an instance, the person HAD knowingly broken an "on the books" law.




I don't think that a "worldly notion" of justice isa fake. However, we probably agree that justice in the world is often poorly executed. Murderers can sometimes go free (and I'd agree with you that that is a failure of justice) but so too is it unjust not to have rights for the accused. Because if the accused don't have rights, then you won't have any justice at all.



I don't think life is fair. I think we need to work hard and and fight to make our world more just.

Thank you for your accuracy.

 

[Estro Felino]

The type of justice that you describe as spiritual is a a sham justification for inflicting an entirely worldly claim of justice. And it isn't even an attempt at a thoughtful, wise or considered sense of justice but merely a ham-fisted biggest-stick mentality.

I value your opinion, but I need to know in detail what's wrong with the kind of Justice I believe in.
How can I debate something if you don't explain yourself?

 

[shunyadragon]

I value your opinion, but I need to know in detail what's wrong with the kind of Justice I believe in.
How can I debate something if you don't explain yourself?

I do not believe you can separate differences in concepts of Justice or justice from the perspective of different belief systems or Theist versus atheist. For example the Torah view of Justice was rather one sided and at time very brutal.

The Confucian system of justice was one of the most just systems of the time, and is still part of the basis justice in the Orient.

Also higher animal cultures have primitive systems of Justice that are often more consistent than many human systems of justice. Systems of justice evolved over time in more intelligent animals and humans to meet the needs of the necessity of cooperative family, community and tribal needs.

 

[Estro Felino]

I do not believe you can separate differences in concepts of Justice or justice from the perspective of different belief systems or Theist versus atheist. For example the Torah view of Justice was rather one sided and at time very brutal.

The Confucian system of justice was one of the most just systems of the time, and is still part of the basis justice in the Orient.

Also higher animal cultures have primitive systems of Justice that are often more consistent than many human systems of justice. Systems of justice evolved over time in more intelligent animals and humans to meet the needs of the necessity of cooperative family, community and tribal needs.

Very true.
But the topic here is atheists...and since most atheists don't believe in an afterlife (not to say almost all of them), I was wondering whether they are content with a tragic vision of a worldly, finite reality where the powerful crush the weak like cockroaches and nobody punishes them.
Nobody will ever punish them, because they are untouchables.

 

[Watchmen]

I am speaking of Justice as secular principle.

The first sentence of your OP suggests otherwise.

 

[ppp]

I value your opinion, but I need to know in detail what's wrong with the kind of Justice I believe in.
How can I debate something if you don't explain yourself?

The sentences I posted were neither complex, nor indirect. Yet your response tells me nothing of what you understood, or what you did not. Nor anything of the nature of your confusion. I cannot converse with a blank stare.

 

[shunyadragon]

Very true.
But the topic here is atheists...and since most atheists don't believe in an afterlife (not to say almost all of them), I was wondering whether they are content with a tragic vision of a worldly, finite reality where the powerful crush the weak like cockroaches and nobody punishes them.
Nobody will ever punish them, because they are untouchables.

What makes you think atheists believe in a 'tragic vision of the worldly.' Various social and legal forms of justice have existed in all cultures and religions in the known history of humanity. The do not believe in an anthropomorphic vengeful God nor any tragic version of the worldly

Your projecting what you believe what others believe concerning justice. In reality the Abrahamic religions have a very bad history in terms of equitable justice.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say. Seems a bit contradictory.

Anyhow, I think the question itself is wrong. "do I believe in Justice". I don't know what that means.
Do I think striving for justice in organized society is a must? yes.
Do I think it is important? yes.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.

First, I don't see how that matters. You can "believe" whatever you want, but it's not going to change anything.
Secondly, for christianity in particular, the idea of "justice" there is a misnomer. There's plenty of things in that religion that are considered "immoral" or "bad" for which supposedly punishment is need which actually isn't immoral or bad at all. And vice versa.
Third, in the classic idea of heaven and hell, that is not justice at all since it is mega disproportional. Infinite punishment for finite "crimes".

For something to be valid as justice, punishment must be proportionate. And reward also, for that matter.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Life is not fair. And there is justice but only insofar as it is imposed upon society by society. Indeed, there is no "cosmic justice".
Indeed, sometimes people will get away with bad behavior.

That's not a reason not to try and make people pay for bad behavior.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course.
Through patience and legal means one can try to make worldly justice work as good as possible.
But, unfortunately the powerful will always find ways to manipulate justice and to get away with misdeeds.
Because they have the power. That makes all commoners powerless.

Pablo Escobar, Gotti, Al Capone, Epstein, ... and many other powerful people disagree.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Absolutely no. The striving for justice is restless and always there.
But there are wicked people who subdue others. And this makes impossible to do justice.
Because the law of the fittest prevails.
Will you deny it?

In other words, your theistic belief in "cosmic justice after death" is just a belief that makes you feel more comfortable and help you sleep at night.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I will never be happy, unless I find out who really killed JFK in Dallas, and whether the CIA was in on it.

According to several wiseguys, it was the italian mob.
Daddy Kennedy was a bootlegger and a "friend" of the mob.
The mob helped get JFK elected. This gave them a "friend" in the White House.
Then his brother started a war on the mob.

The killing of JFK supposedly was "revenge" for that war and his failure to prevent it / stop his brother.

 

[Estro Felino]

In other words, your theistic belief in "cosmic justice after death" is just a belief that makes you feel more comfortable and help you sleep at night.

Bravissimo. You've got it.
Because the Gospel says "Blessed are those who are thirsty for justice, for they will be filled".
And it's Catholic belief. An excellent Catholic priest from my region says that the ones who turned the Vatican into a Freemasonic lodge will go to Hell.
That's justice.
So many people in this world create wars artificially to sell weapons and become billionaires.
They send innocent people to die in useless war, against their will.
They will be sent to Hell by the Godly Tribunal, after they die.

 

[Estro Felino]

According to several wiseguys, it was the italian mob.
Daddy Kennedy was a bootlegger and a "friend" of the mob.
The mob helped get JFK elected. This gave them a "friend" in the White House.
Then his brother started a war on the mob.

The killing of JFK supposedly was "revenge" for that war and his failure to prevent it / stop his brother.

That's what I have always said. The names are James Files and Chuck Nicoletti.
Then I don't understand why the CIA is kinda defending them, by saying it was Oswald.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Bravissimo. You've got it.

I know. But I don't see the point of it.

Because the Gospel says "Blessed are those who are thirsty for justice, for they be filled".
And it's Catholic belief. An excellent Catholic priest from my region says that the ones who turned the Vatican into a Freemasonic cloaca will go to Hell.
That's justice.

You call it "justice". I call it "wishful thinking" at best.

So many people in this world create wars artificially to sell weapons and become billionaires.
They send innocent people to die in useless war, against their will.
They will be sent to Hell by the Godly Tribunal, after they die.

Again, yes, wishful thinking.
Meanwhile, your wishful thinking doesn't make any difference nor does it promote justice in any way, shape or form

 

[Estro Felino]

Meanwhile, your wishful thinking doesn't make any difference nor does it promote justice in any way, shape or form

I can try to dissuade them with speeches. I belong to a local, small political group.
But since they are so powerful, they couldn't care less about my speeches.

I cannot stop them in any way. That is why God does justice. Not me.

 

[Estro Felino]

sometimes people will get away with bad behavior.

Well...it depends on the economic status.
If they are incredibly powerful and rich, they will get away with that. Always or nearly.
If they are poor, never.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's what I have always said. The names are James Files and Chuck Nicoletti.
Then I don't understand why the CIA is kinda defending them, by saying it was Oswald.

I have no ideas about names, nor do I know the truth value of this story.

The wiseguys who tell this story are "rats" that cooperated in the 90s and who supposedly heard this story from the old timers. It was before their time.
They have no evidence nor are these old timers still alive. They also claim to not know anything about it. As in, which family ordered the hit, if the commission was involved, who the shooter(s) were,... They only claim that it was said that cosa nostra was involved and that it was revenge for bobby kennedy's war on the mob after they helped a kennedy get elected.

They also claim that before that, Marilyn Monroe served as a messenger between JFK and the mob bosses.

I have no idea how true any of this is. These former wiseguys are youtubers these days who's channels thrive on fantastical war stories from "the life" in their glory days. So fantastical stories such as this, which can't be verified in any way, are a bit suspect to me... they want clicks and views and subscribers, after all.

Nevertheless, I do think that it stinks a bit. It certainly sounds plausible.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I cannot stop them in any way. That is why God does justice. Not me.

No, as per your own acknowledgement: that is why you WISH there is a god that does justice.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, as per your own acknowledgement: that is why you WISH there is a god that does justice.

I deeply respect your perspective.
As you don't have the same beliefs as me, it's normal that you consider them an illusion, something delusional.

But this thread is about you atheists.
I was asking you: do you believe it is fair that so many Nazis got away with their crimes against humanity?
Since nobody ever punished them.