Do atheists believe in Justice?

[Estro Felino]

You are taking a painfully naive, oversimplified and even dangerous approach to this. They aren't thinking like "mindless animals" (we are animals, by the way and by default think like one), they haven't developed psychotic disorders that made it so they don't feel empathy.

No..I think that the term mindless animals is perfect.

It's group thought, pressure and conformity. It's being taught lies until the truth is confused. It is demonizing and dehumanizing others to the point you see those others as a threat and danger. Sort of like how MAGAs are able to soeak their hate are seeing violence as justified because they have been so thoroughly lied to amd scared that they think those like immigrants and queers are destroying America and they believe the elections are compromised. Add in they are believe liberals are hurting kids then things are getting ripe for a disaster and for America's freedom amd democracy to end and be replaced by a dictatorship.

I believe the real perpetrators of society are the banking élites so I couldn't care less about immigrants, queers or others.
I live and let live.
But I won't leave the banking élites alone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

For instance, I see them like they are celebrating upstairs, whereas those who can really think are downstairs, like in this video:

I'm not allowed to say what I want, so I'll just leave it at that doesn't mean diddly squat and you should try living in the real world without your glasses giving it a golden, rosey, Disney-esque tint.

I believe the real perpetrators of society are the banking élites so I couldn't care less about immigrants, queers or others.
I live and let live.
But I won't leave the banking élites alone.

It's obvious you don't care about queers or immigrants the way you side with those who wish do to harm to us.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's obvious you don't care about queers or immigrants the way you side with those who wish do to harm to us.

I side with the commoners, regardless of sexuality or ethnicity.
I don't side with the élites.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I side with the commoners, regardless of sexuality or ethnicity.
I don't side with the élites.

You side with those who are the elites and are controlled by them. It's RWers like Trump who empower the elites to **** on the commoners. Like here America, where LW Keynesian economics was policy until Reagan, when things reverted back to Neo-Liberalism and pre-Depression ways of thinking. The middle class hasn't been as strong since and it continually declines while the rich keep getting richer. Amd those RWers you side with actually look at there being more million and billionaires here than in years past and say that explains America's diminishing middle class.

 

[Estro Felino]

You side with those who are the elites and are controlled by them. It's RWers like Trump who empower the elites to **** on the commoners. Like here America, where LW Keynesian economics was policy until Reagan, when things reverted back to Neo-Liberalism and pre-Depression ways of thinking. The middle class hasn't been as strong since and it continually declines while the rich keep getting richer. Amd those RWers you side with actually look at there being more million and billionaires here than in years past and say that explains America's diminishing middle class.

You should vote for someone like Sanders, Gabbard or Kennedy. Not the likes of Biden and Hillary.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

I don't know what a spiritual principle is.

Are you referring only to the law and penalties for committing crimes? I'm sure that you would agree that the term applies elsewhere. Justice includes when I give one dog a treat and the other sees that, giving a treat to both. Justice includes social and economic opportunity. Racism and misogyny are justice issues. Justice includes letting the terrible kid on the team have a time at bat. Justice includes fair tax laws.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair

I don't believe that. We can see that it is not.

there is no justice on Earth.

I doubt that you mean that. Just because there is injustice in the world doesn't mean that there is no justice. There is justice in my home. There is justice in my personal relationships. We had a good meal and server this morning and he was rewarded with a nice tip, and he returned the favor by telling us that we left our fly fan on the table as we were walking out.

But this might not be what you had in mind with this thread. Maybe you mean criminal justice. You began by talking about justice for a murderer. That's not possible. One can't atone for that as in "make amends or reparation." The loss of one's life or freedom doesn't repay that debt. The best one can do is feel and express remorse.

[Justice] comes from God, so it's something metaphysical and perfect.

Not in my atheistic worldview it doesn't. It comes from man, or it doesn't come at all.

Nor do I consider the god of Abraham as described in scripture just. That deity drowned the earth over its own engineering failure in one species, and it let a demon maliciously toy with a man's life. What's just about unleashing Satan on the earth?

Here's Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience on the subject of divine justice:

"Let's say somebody goes around and rapes and murders somebody, and after they're done, they get saved. What's the punishment for them? This is the problem with Christian religion. It establishes unrealistic and irrational and immoral criteria by which to live. And then it creates a loophole so that you don't ever have to be responsible for those actions.

"Christianity is not a moral system. It is an immoral system. Because it specifically says that there aren't necessarily consequences that you have to pay because of a loophole. And what is the loophole? It has nothing to do with how good you are or how morally you act. It has to do with whether you are willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is an exception by which you no longer have to suffer a penalty for this."

 

[Estro Felino]

Here's Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience on the subject of divine justice:

"Let's say somebody goes around and rapes and murders somebody, and after they're done, they get saved. What's the punishment for them? This is the problem with Christian religion. It establishes unrealistic and irrational and immoral criteria by which to live. And then it creates a loophole so that you don't ever have to be responsible for those actions.

"Christianity is not a moral system. It is an immoral system. Because it specifically says that there aren't necessarily consequences that you have to pay because of a loophole. And what is the loophole? It has nothing to do with how good you are or how morally you act. It has to do with whether you are willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is an exception by which you no longer have to suffer a penalty for this."

May I suggest you to read the Divine Comedy? By Dante Alighieri?
A good translation into English, with footnotes.

It explains that in Hell there are so many Christians including popes, and in Paradise there are so many non-Christians, including Pagans.

So...please...it's not faith that saves people. If you never destroyed anyone's life, there's a good chance you go to Heaven.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You should vote for someone like Sanders, Gabbard or Kennedy. Not the likes of Biden and Hillary.

Why in the bloody hell would I vote for somone nuttier than squirrel turds like Kennedy?

 

[HonestJoe]

Okay...but I started this thread to get answers, I wasn't assuming anything. Just wondering.

To be fair, you did assume things, about the "worldly justice system", about the beliefs of Christians and those of other "similar religions" and about atheists not believing in justice but believing life is fair. That's why I questioned those points.

You can't get valid answers until you can ask the right questions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nor do I consider the god of Abraham as described in scripture just. That deity drowned the earth over its own engineering failure in one species, and it let a demon maliciously toy with a man's life. What's just about unleashing Satan on the earth?

That's a Christian distortion of the story. It's actually much worse as it's an angel Jehovah instructed to torment Job.

 

[Estro Felino]

To be fair, you did assume things, about the "worldly justice system", about the beliefs of Christians and those of other "similar religions" and about atheists not believing in justice but believing life is fair. That's why I questioned those points.

You can't get valid answers until you can ask the right questions.

Do you know the Italian idiom "having the tail of straw"?

 

[Estro Felino]

Why in the bloody hell would I vote for somone nuttier than squirrel turds like Kennedy?

Considering that the elitist cabal of warmongers had his uncle and dad killed...well...he is on the good side of history.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Considering that the elitist cabal of warmongers had his uncle and dad killed...well...he is on the good side of history.

Well, I don't think that is how the world works.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Considering that the elitist cabal of warmongers had his uncle and dad killed...well...he is on the good side of history.

No, you get on the right or wrong side of history by your own merits. Your families efforts count for less than **** when it comes time to see who you are as a person.
And no, elitist cabals didn't kill JFK. At most it was an American turncloak who seems to have joined the Russkies.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, you get on the right or wrong side of history by your own merits. Your families efforts count for less than **** when it comes time to see who you are as a person.
And no, elitist cabals didn't kill JFK. At most it was an American turncloak who seems to have joined the Russkies.

What the CIA said.
But I won't believe in idiocies just because the CIA said it.
The CIA is nobody.
I only owe loyalty to the Italian Republic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What the CIA said.
But I won't believe in idiocies just because the CIA said it.
The CIA is nobody.
I only owe loyalty to the Italian Republic.

Yeah, it's not just the CIA.

 

[HonestJoe]

Do you know the Italian idiom "having the tail of straw"?

I didn't, but I do now. I'm not sure what the relevance is here though.

 

[QuestioningMind]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

I think that societies should strive for justice, though perfect justice may be unobtainable. As for life being fair, it isn't. If life was fair then societies wouldn't have to strive for justice

 

[ppp]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

The type of justice that you describe as spiritual is a a sham justification for inflicting an entirely worldly claim of justice. And it isn't even an attempt at a thoughtful, wise or considered sense of justice but merely a ham-fisted biggest-stick mentality.

 

[shunyadragon]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

I am not an atheist, but I see no problem with the atheist view of justice, Cultures like the Confucian Culture do not have a belief in an anthropomorphic Theist God, and Divine consequences for issues of Justice with Divine punishment of the wicked.