Do atheists believe in Justice?

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Absolutely no. The striving for justice is restless and always there.
But there are wicked people who subdue others. And this makes impossible to do justice.
Because the law of the fittest prevails.
Will you deny it?

There is no law of the fittest. Sometimes the richest person prevails, sometimes the strongest person prevails, sometimes the most persistent person prevails. Underdogs do win as well. I just accept reality that sometimes justice is done and sometimes it is never done. We must strive for justice to be done as much as possible.

 

[Estro Felino]

There is no law of the fittest. Sometimes the richest person prevails, sometimes the strongest person prevails,

Not sometimes. Almost always.

sometimes the most persistent person prevails. Underdogs do win as well.

Rarely.

I just accept reality that sometimes justice is done and sometimes it is never done. We must strive for justice to be done as much as possible.

I don't want my kids to live in this Hell on Earth...
I am childless for this reason.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

I've never met an atheists who doesn't believe in Justice.

I understand. But this worldly justice is very flawed because people who threaten the peacefulness of a society cannot be monitored 24/7. No system is omniscient and omnipresent.

Threats of a Panoptic Big Brother deity who's just looking and itching for an excuse to fling us into Hell hasn't stopped people who threaten and destroy peace. They tend to think their sky daddy has their back.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't want my kids to live in this Hell on Earth...
I am childless for this reason.

Your infertile. You can't have them to begin with unless they're kids already brought on this earth.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Not sometimes. Almost always.

Ok, if this is true this is reality and we can only strive to change it. Why won't god help us with it?

Rarely.

Ok, if this is true this is reality and we can only strive to change it. Why won't god help us with it?

I don't want my kids to live in this Hell on Earth...
I am childless for this reason.

Well I have three kids and they are not living in hell. They live in a world where good and bad things happen. I taught them to do good wherever they go with whatever power or wealth they have. This is all we can do.

 

[Viker]

I don't want my kids to live in this Hell on Earth...
I am childless for this reason

That's a bit melodramatic but whatever you wish. I sometimes wish I had children.

 

[blü 2]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

I don't follow your reasoning.

Humans are born with moral traits. They include dislike of the one who harms, and like of fairness and reciprocity.

The probable origin of these traits is to assist with living in groups ─ tribes. Regardless, believers have those instincts and nonbelievers have those instincts.

So justice is an elaboration of the human dislike of harming and desire for fairness.

Of course, in a complicated modern society that is by no means monocultural, the public administration of "justice" may often enough have a practical rather than, or as well as, a moral basis.

Murderers may indeed get away with murder now and then, but in the bible, God is the great and unpunished murderer, though [he] may have a defense of insanity ─ what sane entity craves human sacrifice (think of the near miss with Abraham, the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, the sacrifice of the 'sons' of Saul &c?

And in my view the most perplexing of them all is Jesus. Jesus (as he says at the outset, eg Mark 2:20) is on a suicide mission from the start, and when in the Last Supper episode he prays for a way out, God simply refuses.

But why was any such death necessary at all, and what did it accomplish that an omnipotent God couldn't achieve without bloodshed, let alone communicate promptly to the peoples of Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australia, the world's islands and so on?

 

[Estro Felino]

Your infertile. You can't have them to begin with unless they're kids already brought on this earth.

Even if I had been able to procreate, I would have never done it.
Of course there's adoption.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've never met an atheists who doesn't believe in Justice.

Threats of a Panoptic Big Brother deity who's just looking and itching for an excuse to fling us into Hell hasn't stopped people who threaten and destroy peace. They tend to think their sky daddy has their back.

We are speaking of serious misdeeds like murder.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We are speaking of serious misdeeds like murder.

Yeah. Church history is stuffed full of genocide and slaughter, repression and brutality. Fear of your god has stopped none of it.

Even if I had been able to procreate, I would have never done it.
Of course there's adoption.

Yeah, that's the kids already on Earth.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah. Church history is stuffed full of genocide and slaughter, repression and brutality. Fear of your god has stopped none of it.

Exactly. Because some churchmen replaced God and considered themselves God.
Which is what many magistrates nowadays have: the God complex, autolatry. They considered themselves infallible. God.

 

[blü 2]

Exactly. Because some churchmen replaced God and considered themselves God.
Which is what many magistrates nowadays have: the God complex, autolatry. They considered themselves infallible. God.

As I said above (#47), the bible is frank about God's love of human sacrifices. By my morality, that's abhorrent to the point of insanjty.

Here are some more ─

1. Leviticus 27:28-29
Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD.

No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

2. Exodus 22:29-30
You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.
(Though this was later modified, that was not much consolation for all those sacrificed to that point.]

3. Joshua 6:21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old

 

[Estro Felino]

As I said above (#47), the bible is frank about God's love of human sacrifices. By my morality, that's abhorrent to the point of insanjty.

Here are some more ─

1. Leviticus 27:28-29
Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD.

No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

2. Exodus 22:29-30
You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.
(Though this was later modified, that was not much consolation for all those sacrificed to that point.]

3. Joshua 6:21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old

As a Christian I don't consider the Ancient Testament something to be taken literally.
After all, I believe in Evolution, and that Earth is 4 billion years old.

Those passages need to be interpreted by theologians. I am not one.

 

[Valjean]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

I find the concept of "atonement" rather bizarre. Is it a religious rationalization for the desire to hurt those who hurt you? "God's will" seems a pretty façile excuse for vindictiveness.
I don't agree that a state's criminal code necessarily determines the "proper" penalty.

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

Again, I find the religious overlay disturbing, as well as the concept of "paying" for crimes.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

Isn't Christianity about mercy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, and doing good to those abuse you. Doesn't it hold that justice is God's, not man's?
So what God or Justice system are you advocating -- Jesus', or The State's?

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

Atheists aren't a philosophical, doctrinal, or political bloc. Opinions vary.
Where did you get the idea that we believe there is no justice?

 

[Estro Felino]

I find the concept of "atonement" rather bizarre. Is it a religious rationalization for the desire to hurt those who hurt you? "God's will" seems a pretty façile excuse for vindictiveness.

This thread is about religion, not law, indeed.
Well...a Nazi chief who managed an extermination camp cannot demand an award from God when he dies. It would be incredibly impudent, brazen, cheeky. Don't you agree? Please answer.

I don't agree that a state's criminal code necessarily determines the "proper" penalty.

I agree. For instance, I really regret the fact we don't have the death penalty in Europe.
I would reinstate it for mass murderers and mafia bosses.

Again, I find the religious overlay disturbing, as well as the concept of "paying" for crimes.

It deals with allegories.
Sin and evil imply very low degrees of awareness.
If you have evil in your heart, you will have evil in the afterlife. That's what Hell is.

Isn't Christianity about mercy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, and doing good to those abuse you. Doesn't it hold that justice is God's, not man's?

Mercy is something granted to those who repent and those who remedy or try to remedy the damage they have done.
A confession in courtroom is an example.

Has Kissinger ever confessed? Has Kissinger ever apologized? Has Kissinger ever remedied?
No...so just put two and two together. Where he is now.

So what God or Justice system are you advocating -- Jesus', or The State's?

The Christian one.
I have said that state justice or worldly justice is intrinsically flawed, so we Christians rely on God's justice.

Atheists aren't a philosophical, doctrinal, or political bloc. Opinions vary.
Where did you get the idea that we believe there is no justice?

But you do admit that so many murderers get away with murder all the time...so I guess you will come to the conclusion, that worldly justice is flawed.

 

[Heyo]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

Usual disclaimer: I don't speak for all atheists.

Most has already been said, no just world, justice is what we make, etc.

What I want to add: the need for fairness (justice) is older than humanity, Capuchin monkeys display it, toddlers display it, often violently.
This need for justice, and the insight that the universe won't provide it, led to the wishful thinking that a divine being (or principle) may mend that failure of nature. In Buddhism and Hinduism it is Karma, in Christianity and Islam it is divine justice. But it is just that, wishful thinking. There is no evidence for it.
And what constitutes divine justice is widely different among believers, not only between East and West, but within Christianity itself. You believe that "The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice." That is not biblical and not universal among Christians. Most protestants believe in sola gratia, and even in the RCC there are different interpretations. It was believed for a long time that you needed to have the right religion to enter heaven. Only recently has the pope said that that isn't necessary.

 

[Valjean]

I understand. But this worldly justice is very flawed because people who threaten the peacefulness of a society cannot be monitored 24/7. No system is omniscient and omnipresent.
Despite the most sophisticated intelligence services, murderers keep murdering innocent people, and criminals keep doing criminal things.

Might we fix the murderers, when caught, or isolate them?
I don't see the task of 24/7 monitoring an impossibility, and there could be various types of isolation. "Justice," thus far, has not approached the concept of rehabilitation or psychic repair particularly pragmatically. It's been more focused on retaliation or vengeance.

So there is no justice on Earth. I guess as an atheist you should admit to that.

Q.E.D?
Personally, I'm not even clear on what 'justice' is.

 

[anotherneil]

By capitalized Justice I mean a spiritual principle according to which if someone is guilty, that is, they committed a grave crime (murder, for example) they must atone for that crime, through a proper penalty (according to the criminal code).

But this worldly justice is a fake, phony and unholy justice since innocent people can pay for crimes they didn't commit (on the basis of mistakes made by the prosecutors both in good faith, but most of the times, in bad faith). And murderers can get away with murders thanks to lawyers that in order to have their client acquitted, they would even undersell their own soul to the devil.

At least we theists (Christians or other similar religions) believe in a Supreme God that will judge all those who made others suffer, both unwillingly and willingly.
And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice.

So my question to atheists is: how can you believe life is fair, since according to your beliefs, there is no justice?

Thank you all for your kind answers.

Loaded question - life isn't fair.

 

[Estro Felino]

What I want to add: the need for fairness (justice) is older than humanity, Capuchin monkeys display it, toddlers display it, often violently.

I mean... thank God there has always been this need. Otherwise there would be total anarchy as in the savanna.
People killing each other from dawn to sunset.

This need for justice, and the insight that the universe won't provide it, led to the wishful thinking that a divine being (or principle) may mend that failure of nature.

One question: in your opinion what did Nietzsche mean, when he said Mensch ist ein Seil, geknüpft zwischen Tier und Übermensch . Ein Seil über einem Abgrunde ?

In your words...no links or quotations.

In Buddhism and Hinduism it is Karma, in Christianity and Islam it is divine justice. But it is just that, wishful thinking. There is no evidence for it.

Of course there is no evidence for it, but that's not the topic.

And what constitutes divine justice is widely different among believers, not only between East and West, but within Christianity itself. You believe that "The wicked are those who made people suffer out of of selfishness and wickedness. The just are those who pursued justice." That is not biblical and not universal among Christians. Most protestants believe in sola gratia, and even in the RCC there are different interpretations.

Actually many Protestants themselves misquote and misinterpret the sola gratia, because they believe that it's sufficient to believe in Christ's sacrifice, and you're saved. Even if you are a mass murderer.
No... that's a lie. They forget that Protestant theologies point out the good works are the evidence for salvation, so if you are a mass murderer, that is the evidence for damnation, not for salvation. Aristotelian logic.
So even if there are so many differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, they agree on several principles of soteriology.

It was believed for a long time that you needed to have the right religion to enter heaven. Only recently has the pope said that that isn't necessary.

Godly justice is a complex topic...
the Bible is very clear. People need to treat the neighbor fairly, and nothing will happen to them in the afterlife.

 

[Estro Felino]

Might we fix the murderers, when caught, or isolate them?
I don't see the task of 24/7 monitoring an impossibility, and there could be various types of isolation. "Justice," thus far, has not approached the concept of rehabilitation or psychic repair particularly pragmatically. It's been more focused on retaliation or vengeance.

Many years ago, a woman called Adele Mongelli was dumped by her boyfriend, who was cheating on her with a much younger girl.
She went on a rampage, took a knife and stabbed him to death. Then she came to her senses and realized what she had done, and she immediately called the police.
That's what taking responsibility for one's own actions is.
The judicial system appreciated her honest cooperation with justice and so she benefitted from high leniency. She is free now.

Q.E.D?
Personally, I'm not even clear on what 'justice' is.

It comes from just. From latin jus, which means right. What is right.