Do Christians Secretly Believe Jesus Walks Among Us?

[walt]

Oh trust me. I actually really and truly do listen to people on these forums. There have been times when someone has said something to me that starts a buzz in my brain. I don't change my mind on a whim. Often I have to thing about these remarks for many years. But I've changed my mind on a number of very significant topics. I'm probably one of the most open minded people you will ever meet.

The thing is, my bar for what counts as evidence is pretty high. A lot of people just can't reach that.

Thanks for your words I will keep them in mind, I don't find it useful to pick apart other people's words. Is it really necessary?

Do I pick apart your words?

 

[Jimmy]

Again, there is no way how much of the Sermon on the Mount or WHICH things within it were things actually taught by Jesus, or simply things later attributed to him.

Same goes for Celsus and Apollonius of Tyana

 

[Jimmy]

Again, there is no way how much of the Sermon on the Mount or WHICH things within it were things actually taught by Jesus, or simply things later attributed to him.

Doesn’t really matter anyway because the teachings are good ones for the most part.

 

[walt]

Jesus didn't write any of the gospels.

I think that is obvious, the gospels were written long after Jesus died and rose to heaven. The Bible is the inspired word of God If we read 2nd Timothy 3:16 "it is beneficial words" And was written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think there’s something in the Bible about people like you who require evidence.

None of which is relevant to my capacity to listen and change my mind. It just means you can't be sloppy about it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Can I ask you some questions? A man walking out of a tomb after being dead is pretty extraordinary don’t you think? This is no small thing to proclaim. What could be driving such a fantastical claim? We’re living in the same world he supposedly lived in. Do you think these fantastical things only exist in his time? All that I ask of someone is if they’re going to believe such fantastical claims that they really give it some full thought before coming to a conclusion about what they actually believe in the realm of miracles and miraculous events.

Good questions.

If I may ask you one: Do people claim to speak with the dead / invisible spirits?
How would you classify that?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thanks for your words I will keep them in mind, I don't find it useful to pick apart other people's words. Is it really necessary?

Do I pick apart your words?

It all depends. If picking words apart increases communication and understanding, or assists in the evaluation of what is being said, those are all very good reasons. If a person is just in a foul mood and taking it out on someone, that would be a very poor reason.

 

[walt]

..

Thank you, I have noticed on this forum that a lot of people like to debate and correct each other's words, I am guilty of this myself.

I wish we could do it in a more useful beneficial way.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Doesn’t really matter anyway because the teachings are good ones for the most part.

Many of them are very good. In fact, I wrote a post a few weeks ago on how this sermon promoted standard Jewish teaching. Which is not to say that every element was reasonable. Just saying.

 

[Jimmy]

Good questions.

If I may ask you one: Do people claim to speak with the dead / invisible spirits?
How would you classify that?

People do claim that but I think when your dead that’s it and there’s no one that can communicate with them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think that is obvious, the gospels were written long after Jesus died and rose to heaven. The Bible is the inspired word of God If we read 2nd Timothy 3:16 "it is beneficial words" And was written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

No offense. I have no interest in undermining your faith. But the logic you are using here is called circular reasoning, and its fallacious. "The bible is the word of God because the bible says it and we know that this is authoritative because the Bible is the word of God.... yada yada." It just doesn't fly.

I also have sacred texts. For me, they are the Torah, Prophets and Writings (what you call the Old Testament) as well as the Talmud and the writings of the sages. But I feel no urgency to claim that God authored any of these texts, that they are inerrant, etc. They inspire me, bring me closer to God, and help me become a better person. Isn't that what ultimately matters?

 

[walt]

It all depends. If picking words apart increases communication and understanding, or assists in the evaluation of what is being said, those are all very good reasons. If a person is just in a foul mood and taking it out on someone, that would be a very poor reason.

I think it will be a little difficult at first, but I think just about anything can actually be accomplished, don't you?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think it will be a little difficult at first, but I think just about anything can actually be accomplished, don't you?

No. I will never grow fur and purr, even though that would be lovely.

 

[walt]

No. I will never grow fur and purr, even though that would be lovely.

Am I asking you to do all that? We all know what kind of words irritate another person and we all know what kind of word are friendly.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Am I asking you to do all that? We all know what kind of words irritate another person and we all know what kind of word are friendly.

It was meant to be a light hearted joke. I was trying to be friendly. Apparently I didn't succeed.

No, I don't think we can become whatever we wish. I could give you a far more serious example, but at this point I don't want to further irritate you.

 

[walt]

It was meant to be a light hearted joke. I was trying to be friendly. Apparently I didn't succeed.

No, I don't think we can become whatever we wish. I could give you a far more serious example, but at this point I don't want to further irritate you.

I am not irritated, besides if you want I can be friendly for both of us.

 

[walt]

I am not irritated, besides if you want I can be friendly for both of us.

Is there a subject you would like to talk about? I myself do not believe Jesus walks around here on earth IMO.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is there a subject you would like to talk about? I myself do not believe Jesus walks around here on earth IMO.

LOL, same here.

Gosh, my interests are so wide and so varied, I really have no idea what to suggest. I'm a jack of all trades, and master of none.

Besides Christianity, are there any other religions you have looked into or studied?

 

[walt]

..

Would you like to talk about any information on God's name? I watched a bunch of videos by Nehemia Gordon..

Nehemia Gordon was born in an Orthodox Jewish family in Chicago in 1972 but moved to Israel in 1993. Though raised Orthodox, as an adult he converted to Karaite Judaism, He says: In Israel, I worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

I would like to learn anything about God's people in the time of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses or King Josiah?

We can talk about any subject you are comfortable talking about?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would you like to talk about any information on God's name? I watched a bunch of videos by Nehemia Gordon..

Sure, I can do that, although I'm about to go to bed, and probably will be unable to reply until tomorrow.

I'm assuming that you are referring to the Hebrew name of God, which is spelled yod hey vav hey. Here is what I know about it, which is not much.
1. The knowledge of how to pronounce it is lost forever, because we don't know what the vowels were. The pronunciation was originally passed down orally, but with the destruction of the Temple, this knowledge was lost. The best we can manage at this time are educated guesses.
2. Jehovah is a terrible guess, because the J sound doesn't exist in Hebrew. If you substitute a Y for the J, you get the variation that the Masoretes used, who inserted the vowels of Adonai (Lord) into the yod hey vav hey. So we pretty much know that it's not Yehovah.
3. Many scholars suggest Yahweh. This seems to be the best guess, though still a guess. It is based on the fact that the Hebrew word for "He will be" is similar to Yahweh (we can go into this in more detail of you wish, but remember that I'm not a scholar). "He will be" does bring to mind the phrase "I will be who I will be."
4. For us Jews, the divine name of God is incredibly sacred. We are commanded not to take it in vain, which for us means we shouldn't even use it in a casual manner. When in this forum, I will sometimes use "Yahweh" or "YHWH" or yod hey vav hey because this is necessary for educational purposes. But it never stops me from feeling incredibly uncomfortable to do so. I think that most religious Jews possibly feel the same way that I do, that it is better not to attempt to say God's divine name than to attempt it and butcher it.

Nehemia Gordon was born in an Orthodox Jewish family in Chicago in 1972 but moved to Israel in 1993. Though raised Orthodox, as an adult he converted to Karaite Judaism, says: In Israel, I worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Like most religious Jews, I just really don't put Karaite Judaism into the Judaism box. The tradition of Oral Torah existed for hundred, perhaps thousands of years before the Karaite movement.

And consider also, that this movement is dead. You do find the occasional Karaite, but it would take a lot more than that to resurrect the movement.

One of the reasons I personally don't care for it, is because I consider it hypocritical. They moan and groan about the Oral Torah of mainstream Judaism, but then turn around and establish their own oral traditions. For example, in Karaite tradition, you do not leave your home during the Shabbat, nor can you allow a flame to continue burning that was lit before Shabbat. They basically sit at home in the dark. That's an interpretation, a tradition, no different than any other interpretation.

IOW, there really is no such thing as Torah without interpretation. It cannot exist. It's just more honest if we admit it.

All of that is a very different topic from the Dead Sea Scrolls. As I said, I'm not a scholar, but you did highlight that part in bold print, and if that means you would like to discuss them, let me know and I'll do my best.