Do disagreements between Baha'is have any significance for anyone else?

[Jim]

Sometimes there are wide divergences between Baha'is in our interpretations of Baha'i scriptures. Some examples are in relation to homosexuality and gay marriage, the ineligibility of women for election to our supreme council, the nature and scope of that council's authority, the future role of the Baha'i Faith and its institutions in society, and even the divinity and infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the reality or existence of G_d. In my reading of Baha'i scriptures, no person or institution today has any authority to say that any of those interpretations are right or wrong, but that's only my personal opinion. There might be Baha'is who disagree with that. On the other hand, I don't see anyone, including the Universal House of Justice, claiming to have that authority.

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sometimes there are wide divergences between Baha'is in our interpretations of Baha'i scriptures. Some examples are in relation to homosexuality and gay marriage, the ineligibility of women for election to our supreme council, the nature and scope of that council's authority, the future role of the Baha'i Faith and its institutions in society, and even the divinity and infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the reality or existence of G_d. In my reading of Baha'i scriptures, no person or institution today has any authority to say that any of those interpretations are right or wrong, but that's only my personal opinion. There might be Baha'is who disagree with that. On the other hand, I don't see anyone, including the Universal House of Justice, claiming to have that authority.

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

It does change how I think about the faith. However, it has no meaningful impact, since the faith holds no power (or meaningful presence) in my life, and the same is true in reverse. My interest and opinion are basically academic only.

 

[Windwalker]

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

Absolutely. I'm very appreciative you shared this, as I've been concerned based on what I've heard from other Baha'is about this almost authoritarian brainwashing, which blocks people from accepting points of view outside certain views of their scriptures. Any other understanding of religion and religious experience that we gain in our modern research is of little value compared to the interpretation of a "revelation" in scripture.

That leaves little room for growth of understanding, when everything must pass the muster of an approved interpretation of their scriptures. That to me, threatens spiritual development, as it curtails the mind.

To hear there is a spectrum of thought which actually dares to look beneath the covers of mythology to see more than literal points of view, says something more positive to folks like me who see a lot more than the "prophet and revelation" model of human understanding.

Even the basis of the Mormon faith, with their particular twist on "revelation" with their graphic-novel like characters, that it really does since its founding just become a spectrum of individuals just in some religion that they could fit into, as opposed to the died-in-the-wool, die-hard believer in the prophet. Religions are a lot more human than that, unless they are cults.

 

[Jumi]

Yes, they have significance. Critical thinkers are a good sign in any religion.

 

[sun rise]

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is?

I don't care about the details. But it does illustrate what happens with religions over time where the initial positive energy dissipates and theological disputes become the order of the day.

 

[oldbadger]

Do disagreements between Baha'is have any significance for anyone else?

Only if Bahai would gain control of other folk's lives in any way.

What it means for Bahai is that, just like Christianity, there'll be many differing Bahai assemblies given enough time, each one claiming to be the right one.

That's OK, because as with Christianity, there are Churches that I am fond of, and others which I have no respect for at all.

I could warm to a Bahai assembly which supported freedom of equality, position and status regardless of gender, sexual orientation, marital and couple status, religion (or not), nationality, race, colour, (adult)age and ability and which spoke with straight tongue about its past, present and future hopes, but then it would not be Bahai, surely?

 

[Jim]

I could warm to a Bahai assembly which supported freedom of equality, position and status regardless of gender, sexual orientation, marital and couple status, religion (or not), nationality, race, colour, (adult)age and ability and which spoke with straight tongue about its past, present and future hopes, but then it would not be Bahai, surely?

I don't see why not. I don't see anything in that, that would disqualify anyone from membership in the Baha'i community.

 

[Jim]

I don't care about the details. But it does illustrate what happens with religions over time where the initial positive energy dissipates and theological disputes become the order of the day.

Only on the Internet, and only for a few hundred Baha'is at most.

ETA:

The most Baha'is disputing with anyone about theology, that I've ever seen or heard of, have been less than thirty, and only in Internet discussions.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't see why not. I don't see anything in that, that would disqualify anyone from membership in the Baha'i community.

Really?

Please tell me why these same folks would become a Bahai. Is it that they can get to heaven after death? Will they be able to spend eternity with their grannies (who they loved)? I personally don't want to see one granny ever again!

Will the World be more wonderful if it is a Bahai World?

Why is the World going to beat a path to your version of Bahai?

 

[oldbadger]

@Jim ....... I must go back to bed........ will carry this on later, please.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

Bahais themselves are irrelevant to me, what to talk about differences that may exist within them. As a prophet (or Manifestation) based religion, only what Bahaullah said or what his biological successors said will be considered authentic.

I could warm to a Bahai assembly which supported freedom of equality, position and status regardless of gender, sexual orientation, marital and couple status, religion (or not), nationality, race, colour, (adult)age and ability and which spoke with straight tongue about its past, present and future hopes, but then it would not be Bahai, surely?

Change what the latest manifestation of God said? Unthinkable, heretics. They would be ousted just as the followers of Bab were.

 

[LuisDantas]

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

Bahais do not exist in a bubble, away from interaction with "Bahai-Kuffar".

Just like anyone else, your doubts, your certainties, and the ways in which you deal with your divergences very much do have an impact over other people, even if indirectly.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sometimes there are wide divergences between Baha'is in our interpretations of Baha'i scriptures. Some examples are in relation to homosexuality and gay marriage, the ineligibility of women for election to our supreme council, the nature and scope of that council's authority, the future role of the Baha'i Faith and its institutions in society, and even the divinity and infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the reality or existence of G_d. In my reading of Baha'i scriptures, no person or institution today has any authority to say that any of those interpretations are right or wrong, but that's only my personal opinion. There might be Baha'is who disagree with that. On the other hand, I don't see anyone, including the Universal House of Justice, claiming to have that authority.

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

I haven't seen much wide divergence, other than you. Originally I only got into a discussion with Baha'i folks here because of their misinterpretation of my faith. Over time, I got curious about the dogmatism, more as a case study of dogmatism than anything else. It was curious to me, how such echo chambers could exist, as I'd never been around one before. The words changed slightly, but essentially it was like I was talking to one character. I even suspected internet sock puppetry.

You seem different though, and I suspect if you seriously challenged anything about the makeup of the UHJ or homosexuality and were in a situation where someone coule report you to your NSA, and then the UHJ, you'd be declared a Covenant Breaker. But at this point, I suspect you've been keeping a low profile on it, just as many people of other faiths do, for their own reasons.

But to answer your question ... it has absolutely no significance to me personally.

 

[Jim]

Bahais do not exist in a bubble, away from interaction with "Bahai-Kuffar".

Just like anyone else, your doubts, your certainties, and the ways in which you deal with your divergences very much do have an impact over other people, even if indirectly.

I agree. Another question is, what value or potential value do you see in online discussions about a system of principles and practices, between its followers and other people? Asking myself the same question, one possible value I see in it is that some people might learn something from it, that might possibly make some small difference in resolving conflicts of interest between that system and the rest of society, and/or in helping to improve the system. Another possible value I see in it is that it can be a way of people getting to know each other better, to improve relationships between them if they want to. Do you have any other ideas about any value or potential value in online discussions about a system of principles and practices, between its followers and other people?

It isn’t clear to me why I’m doing it, myself. It might be mostly for what I can learn from it, myself, because I don’t see much possibility for anything I say to do anyone else any good. I think that I can do a lot more good offline than I can online. Or maybe it’s more just for the social interaction.

 

[Jim]

Originally I only got into a discussion with Baha'i folks here because of their misinterpretation of my faith.

I’ve seen people complaining about that a lot, all over the Internet.

It was curious to me, how such echo chambers could exist, as I'd never been around one before.

I’ve seen many echo chambers, not only Baha’i ones, but others also.

The words changed slightly, but essentially it was like I was talking to one character. I even suspected internet sock puppetry.

I’ve seen people openly accusing Baha’is of doing that, in some forums.

All that has created a lot of trouble for me in Internet discussions, when people find out I’m a Baha’i. Maybe we need to have some training courses for Baha’is who want to promote their religions on the Internet. Now I’m wondering how much trouble my behavior has made for other Baha’is who came after me. Food for thought!

I suspect if you seriously challenged anything about the makeup of the UHJ or homosexuality and were in a situation where someone coule report you to your NSA, and then the UHJ, you'd be declared a Covenant Breaker. But at this point, I suspect you've been keeping a low profile on it, just as many people of other faiths do, for their own reasons.

Low profile! ROTFL! I wrote to the House of Justice myself, about my friendships with some of the people who were campaigning against it, and I discussed it with my local Baha’i council.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree. Another question is, what value or potential value do you see in online discussions about a system of principles and practices, between its followers and other people?

If nothing else, that would allow better mutual understanding, avoidance of unnecessary conflicts, and clearer statement of unavoidable disagreements.

It may also enhance awareness of the extent to which doctrines of contrasting languages and origins actually converge or truly disagree. That can only be a good thing.

To some doctrines, that might be a scary change, even a destructive one. But I still think that it is a good thing.

 

[Vinayaka]

I’ve seen people complaining about that a lot, all over the Internet.

I’ve seen many echo chambers, not only Baha’i ones, but others also.

I’ve seen people openly accusing Baha’is of doing that, in some forums.

All that has created a lot of trouble for me in Internet discussions, when people find out I’m a Baha’i. Maybe we need to have some training courses for Baha’is who want to promote their religions on the Internet. Now I’m wondering how much trouble my behavior has made for other Baha’is who came after me. Food for thought!

Low profile! ROTFL! I wrote to the House of Justice myself, about my friendships with some of the people who were campaigning against it, and I discussed it with my local Baha’i council.

There is no doubt in my mind that Baha'i chase more people away than they get interested in it. The internet has put the kabosh on a lot of proselytising religions. Too easy to search ex-_______ or _________ scandals.

 

[CG Didymus]

I haven't seen much wide divergence, other than you. Originally I only got into a discussion with Baha'i folks here because of their misinterpretation of my faith. Over time, I got curious about the dogmatism, more as a case study of dogmatism than anything else. It was curious to me, how such echo chambers could exist, as I'd never been around one before. The words changed slightly, but essentially it was like I was talking to one character. I even suspected internet sock puppetry.

You seem different though, and I suspect if you seriously challenged anything about the makeup of the UHJ or homosexuality and were in a situation where someone coule report you to your NSA, and then the UHJ, you'd be declared a Covenant Breaker. But at this point, I suspect you've been keeping a low profile on it, just as many people of other faiths do, for their own reasons.

But to answer your question ... it has absolutely no significance to me personally.

I don't think the Baha'i Faith is as "progressive" that some Baha'is make it out to be. Women's rights include abortion and the pill. I doubt if the Baha'i Faith would allow it. Gays have come out. Modern society has had to change its thinking about them and accept them. The Baha'i don't accept them as they are. At some point, the Baha'i Faith expects them to become "normal" and become attracted to the opposite sex. What do Baha'is do with social drinkers and social pot smokers? It's outlawed in the Faith, so what would Baha'i officials do? They can't allow that kind of behavior to continue. So what would all these "almost" Baha'is do? They like the Faith, but they can't abide by all the rules? So will those in authority get all those "almost" Baha'is kicked out of the Faith if they continue in their wayward activities or what I wonder?

 

[paarsurrey]

Sometimes there are wide divergences between Baha'is in our interpretations of Baha'i scriptures. Some examples are in relation to homosexuality and gay marriage, the ineligibility of women for election to our supreme council, the nature and scope of that council's authority, the future role of the Baha'i Faith and its institutions in society, and even the divinity and infallibility of Baha'u'llah and the reality or existence of G_d. In my reading of Baha'i scriptures, no person or institution today has any authority to say that any of those interpretations are right or wrong, but that's only my personal opinion. There might be Baha'is who disagree with that. On the other hand, I don't see anyone, including the Universal House of Justice, claiming to have that authority.

Does any of that have any significance for anyone else but Baha'is? I see other people besides Baha'is discussing the Baha'i Faith. Does that divergence in Baha'i interpretations of Baha'i scriptures, and the absence of any Baha'i or Baha'i institution claiming that their interpretations have any authority, make any difference to anyone besides Baha'is, in how you think about the Baha'i Faith?

I have always investigated truth about a revealed religion from the core books of a religion. I don't see any religion from the eyes of their opposing religions or from the followers of even that religion. So, I write for myself and from my own experience of the said religion's truthful founder from his core book.
In this context, I am least interested in what the Bahais believe and whether they differ among themselves or not. I am interested in Bahaullah and his core book Kitab-i-Aqdas- "The Most Holy Book", and seeing it with a comparison with Quran.

Did Bahaullah declare and claim Kitab-i-Aqdas as "The Most Holy Book" or this claim about the book is made by the Bahais, please?

Any Bahai or everyone of the Bahai friends on this forum or a non-Bahai could respond freely.
It is a simple question, so please answer it in a straightforward and unequivocal manner, please.

Regards

 

[Jim]

Did Bahaullah declare and claim Kitab-i-Aqdas as "The Most Holy Book" or this claim about the book is made by the Bahais, please?

I don’t see it as a good use of my time to answer questions that people can easily answer themselves, more reliably and accurately, by searching on the Internet. I don’t feel any responsibility to copy and paste the answers for them. I’m happy to answer questions about my personal experiences and observations in learning to follow Bahá’u’lláh.