Do Muslims and Jews worship the same God?

[Levite]

The problem is though Mohammed was not a prophet to "his" people but to the world and all people not just Arabs. so whatever revelation God may or may not have sent to Mohammed ,would it be true to say according to Jews ,it wasn't for Jews ?

This is where Jewish theology and Muslim theology differ.

The point in this particular difference is, mind you, not whether we worship the same God, but what that same God's revelations may have meant.

I understand that Muslims say that Muhammad is God's prophet to all the world, and the Quran is the ultimate scriptual document for all people to follow properly.

The best we Jews can do with that is to say that Muhammad must have been God's messenger to the Children of Ishmael, and anyone who follows his teachings is adopted into the Children of Ishmael, just as anyone who converts to Judaism is adopted into the Children of Isaac.

But we Jews could never believe that any document or covenant is intended to replace the Covenant of Sinai and the Torah for our people. Again, what non-Jews do is not our affair, though we applaud monotheism and social justice. But it is simply incompatible with Jewish belief to accept the idea that Jews ought to accept any commandments outside those of Torah, follow any religious law but halakhah, or accept any covenant beside or in place of the one we took on at Sinai.

For our purposes we perforce must presume that Muhammad misunderstood some of the scope of his revelation, that misunderstanding being specifically wherever it suggests that we Jews ought better to become Muslims.

But Levite dont you see a huge difference between the g*d of judaism and the g*d of islam?
Why should i consider that they believe in the same g*d like we do when some basic logic tells me otherwise?

Iam sorry but why should g*d a being without time change his opinion of something while he already knew it was going to happen before he set the first rules?

Its like iam forbidding someone to cross the street while i already know that he/she will cross the street without a doubt after which i'll completely change my mind about it.

It just makes no sense to me.

Of course muslims are free to believe whatever they want if they let others have their own beliefs.

I don't see any difference at all between the God of Judaism and the God of Islam. What I do see are differences in the sacred writings of Judaism and of Islam, differences in their theologies, differences in how they interpret the revelations that God gave their originators, what they believe God is saying that He wishes of them.

The nature of the existence of God, in both religions is nearly identical: both hold that God is One, transcendant yet immanent, solely responsible for all Creation, without physical form, eternal, infinite, and could never be represented by any physical form, or be encompassed in an avatar, etc. This is clearly the same God.

It is only what Jews and Muslims believe in regard to the doctrines of commandments and ultimate authority of scriptural authenticity that differs greatly. Is the Quran different from the Tanakh, from the Oral Torah? Very. But do Muslims worship a different God? No, I cannot imagine thinking that they do.

 

[J2hapydna]

For our purposes we perforce must presume that Muhammad misunderstood some of the scope of his revelation, that misunderstanding being specifically wherever it suggests that we Jews ought better to become Muslims.

I agree, it would be unreasonable, in my opinion, for one God to tell the Jews that the Torah that is with them, was to guide them forever and then for a prophet to come in another nation, with a replacement scripture. So, I think you are being quite generous to the Arabs in suggesting that perhaps, Muhammad p may have misunderstood his revelation.

On the other hand, it should be noted that the Quran does not specifically state anywhere, that Muslims should abandon the Torah, not read it, that it is useless to Muslims or declare that it is no longer God's scripture etc. Infact, the Quran categorically states that those who deny belief in the Bible and the Quran as scripture of God will be severely punished. The Quran states that nobody is able to change a single word of God. The Quran also states that there are good people who read both the Bible and the Quran. It also states that the coming of Muhammad was prophesised in the Bible. What the Quran does suggest against the Bible is that words in the Bible have been misinterpreted/ mistranslated at times, by Jews and Christians. In other words, be wary of translations. In addition, the Quran suggests that scholarly opinions are being given the same importance as those of the prophets and history is being concealed by insincere Jews and Christians. This would be an indication to reject paul in my opinion. In which case, it would be the Arabs themselves who misunderstood the revelation to the prophet p not the prophet p himself misunderstanding it. Personally, this is the view that I hold.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So Levite if Jews believe that Muhammad may have been for the children of Ishmael, to establish a covenant between them and God, what if Christians? Do Jews believe Christianity has done the same for non-Jews who are Christians?

 

[Flankerl]

I don't see any difference at all between the God of Judaism and the God of Islam. What I do see are differences in the sacred writings of Judaism and of Islam, differences in their theologies, differences in how they interpret the revelations that God gave their originators, what they believe God is saying that He wishes of them.

The nature of the existence of God, in both religions is nearly identical: both hold that God is One, transcendant yet immanent, solely responsible for all Creation, without physical form, eternal, infinite, and could never be represented by any physical form, or be encompassed in an avatar, etc. This is clearly the same God.

It is only what Jews and Muslims believe in regard to the doctrines of commandments and ultimate authority of scriptural authenticity that differs greatly. Is the Quran different from the Tanakh, from the Oral Torah? Very. But do Muslims worship a different God? No, I cannot imagine thinking that they do.

I agree the g*d which muslims believe in shares some characteristics but you cant just ignore that there are parts in the quran who oppose the way HaShem has acted in the past.
I mean ok the quran states that g*d has no physical form etc like its stated in the tanakh but Levite the very same quran states that g*d just changed his mind out of the middle of nowhere and nullified the convenant he had with us which was supposed to be forever.


You cant just take some parts of the quran which you like and ignore something that goes against the very foundation of judaism. Our convenant with HaShem.

Iam sorry but i just dont get it.

 

[Harmonious]

So Levite if Jews believe that Muhammad may have been for the children of Ishmael, to establish a covenant between them and God, what if Christians? Do Jews believe Christianity has done the same for non-Jews who are Christians?

No.

The operative phrase to remember is "may have been". And to be honest, the fundamental understanding of basic theology of Islam makes sense, as given through the filter of Ishmael.

Regardless of what any given denomination of Christianity believes Jesus to be, the fact remains that it only really works on a "replacement theology" basis. The very gospels talk of Jesus being a prophet primarily to Jews, but then when the Jews weren't buying what the disciples were selling, Paul moved on to a non-Jewish audience.

The whole importance of Jesus' mission, as directed to the Jews, doesn't work. You would be hard-pressed to convince anyone familiar with the texts that the gospels were a condemnation of the Jews of Jesus' time.

I'm going off on a tangent I didn't intend. The reason Muhammad doesn't bother the Jews as, perhaps, a prophet to Ishmael is that his teachings in no way interfere with what the Jews are doing.

Jesus can't have spoken and given prophecy or whatever to Christians without disrupting Jewish tradition, as believing in the gospels requires a suspension of disbelief that Jews would forget how holidays work, forget how Jewish ecclesiastic courts work, forget how Jews determine who is actually PART of a body of law, forget all laws and customs with regard to burial, and then to forget our own concept of God's incorporeality (or something - different denominations disagree about what, precisely, Jesus was).

Christians would be covered covenantally under that of Noah.

 

[Levite]

So Levite if Jews believe that Muhammad may have been for the children of Ishmael, to establish a covenant between them and God, what if Christians? Do Jews believe Christianity has done the same for non-Jews who are Christians?

Christianity is a bit trickier in that I personally believe that there is a difference between what Jesus seems to have taught versus what Pauline theology and scriptural redaction has done in establishing Christianity as it stands.

I don't know that I find grounds for Christianity to be a "sent" revelation. But I also don't think that there is any reason to suppose that if a person can find revelation through the vector of Christianity, and this empowers them to do the right and the good, and to love God and His works in whatever fashion they are capable of doing so, that that shouldn't be perfectly acceptable to God as a practice for non-Jews.

I certainly see nothing wrong with non-Jews practicing Christianity and expressing their spirituality in that way, and I even believe that they may truly find the sacred in that fashion. I personally happen not to find trinitarianism, or belief in Jesus' divinity or holiness tenable theologically, but I also think that good Christians are using Christian teaching to truly reach out to the One Creator. And as Psalm 145 notes, karov YHVH l'chol kor'av l'chol asher yikre'u'hu b'emet ("God is accessible to all those who cry out to Him: to any who call to Him faithfully.").

What are, from the Jewish point of view, the theological problems with Christianity, do not, in my opinion, prevent it from being a potentially successful methodology for living a life of good deeds and sanctity, which is ultimately what I believe God wants most. Which, I guess you could say, sort of makes it into a de facto covenant, even if not a de jure covenant, if you take my meaning.

I agree the g*d which muslims believe in shares some characteristics but you cant just ignore that there are parts in the quran who oppose the way HaShem has acted in the past.
I mean ok the quran states that g*d has no physical form etc like its stated in the tanakh but Levite the very same quran states that g*d just changed his mind out of the middle of nowhere and nullified the convenant he had with us which was supposed to be forever.

You cant just take some parts of the quran which you like and ignore something that goes against the very foundation of judaism. Our convenant with HaShem.

Iam sorry but i just dont get it.

Flankerl, what I would like to do is separate out existential theology (a theology of what God's nature is, and what is or is not God, and how may we in part describe and name God) from doctrinal theology (what do we think God wants from us, and what do we believe He might have tried to tell us).

I would certainly agree that the doctrinal theology of Islam is not compatible with that of Judaism. Islam teaches that God wants things that we, as Jews, must of necessity believe that God would not want.

But the disagreement is about what God would want, what God would ask of human beings: it's not about what is God and what is not God. In other words, Jews and Muslims both believe in the same One God: we don't agree about some of the things that God wants from us.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Levite one more question if I may- How would a Jew view a Pagan religion, like say my own or Hinduism, with a Monist view of God? That is to say, a view in which God is viewed as ultimately one with many facets, or as a supreme cosmic force from which everything eminates. Are these religions in your view, valid for non-Jews in approaching your god?

 

[kai]

This is where Jewish theology and Muslim theology differ.

The point in this particular difference is, mind you, not whether we worship the same God, but what that same God's revelations may have meant.

I understand that Muslims say that Muhammad is God's prophet to all the world, and the Quran is the ultimate scriptual document for all people to follow properly.

The best we Jews can do with that is to say that Muhammad must have been God's messenger to the Children of Ishmael, and anyone who follows his teachings is adopted into the Children of Ishmael, just as anyone who converts to Judaism is adopted into the Children of Isaac.

But we Jews could never believe that any document or covenant is intended to replace the Covenant of Sinai and the Torah for our people. Again, what non-Jews do is not our affair, though we applaud monotheism and social justice. But it is simply incompatible with Jewish belief to accept the idea that Jews ought to accept any commandments outside those of Torah, follow any religious law but halakhah, or accept any covenant beside or in place of the one we took on at Sinai.

For our purposes we perforce must presume that Muhammad misunderstood some of the scope of his revelation, that misunderstanding being specifically wherever it suggests that we Jews ought better to become Muslims.



I don't see any difference at all between the God of Judaism and the God of Islam. What I do see are differences in the sacred writings of Judaism and of Islam, differences in their theologies, differences in how they interpret the revelations that God gave their originators, what they believe God is saying that He wishes of them.

The nature of the existence of God, in both religions is nearly identical: both hold that God is One, transcendant yet immanent, solely responsible for all Creation, without physical form, eternal, infinite, and could never be represented by any physical form, or be encompassed in an avatar, etc. This is clearly the same God.

It is only what Jews and Muslims believe in regard to the doctrines of commandments and ultimate authority of scriptural authenticity that differs greatly. Is the Quran different from the Tanakh, from the Oral Torah? Very. But do Muslims worship a different God? No, I cannot imagine thinking that they do.

thanks for the insight, just a little more please??


my main point is the prophet.

so you agree Mohammed is a prophet and that he received a revelation from your God but that its been misunderstood by Mohammed.

The main point for me is that you believe that it was indeed your God that revealed something to Mohammed and that he was indeed a prophet.

 

[Levite]

thanks for the insight, just a little more please??

my main point is the prophet.

so you agree Mohammed is a prophet and that he received a revelation from your God but that its been misunderstood by Mohammed.

The main point for me is that you believe that it was indeed your God that revealed something to Mohammed and that he was indeed a prophet.

I don't know that Muhammad was a prophet. But I also don't know that he wasn't. What I think is that it is not impossible that Muhammad had an experience of God.

And even if he did, I think that, by definition, any prophecy he may have experienced was specific to his community. Jews do not, generally speaking, believe in universalist prophecies (that is, applicable to everyone in the world, equally), and we certainly do believe that the age of prophets among the Jewish people ended long before Muhammad.

Levite one more question if I may- How would a Jew view a Pagan religion, like say my own or Hinduism, with a Monist view of God? That is to say, a view in which God is viewed as ultimately one with many facets, or as a supreme cosmic force from which everything eminates. Are these religions in your view, valid for non-Jews in approaching your god?

That's actually been a topic of debate amongst non-Orthodox rabbis (and some Modern Orthodox rabbis) of late.

There's no general agreement on the topic, or even a large movement in any direction. What I can say is that I, and a number of other rabbis I've discussed the matter with, agree that faiths like, for example, Vaishnavic Hinduism, which postulates One Ultimate God, and of whom any other higher powers are merely manifestations of aspects, are probably legitimate ways that people are attempting to relate to the One God. Their theology is, from a Jewish point of view, a bit problematic, and complicated to the point of error, but the intent is clear, and such individuals are often righteous and honorable and full of faith and sanctity.

So I, and some of my colleagues, would certainly say that, while such practices would be forbidden to Jews, there is nothing wrong with non-Jews practicing them and expressing their spirituality in those ways, so long as they are just and good to other people.

 

[Flankerl]

Flankerl, what I would like to do is separate out existential theology (a theology of what God's nature is, and what is or is not God, and how may we in part describe and name God) from doctrinal theology (what do we think God wants from us, and what do we believe He might have tried to tell us).

I would certainly agree that the doctrinal theology of Islam is not compatible with that of Judaism. Islam teaches that God wants things that we, as Jews, must of necessity believe that God would not want.

But the disagreement is about what God would want, what God would ask of human beings: it's not about what is God and what is not God. In other words, Jews and Muslims both believe in the same One God: we don't agree about some of the things that God wants from us.

Hm okay thank you for your answer and thank you that you are patient with me.


Flankerl

 

[J2hapydna]

Flankerl, is it not just symantics? As a monotheist, do you not believe that all humans, infact all things are made by your one god?

Then, when another human speaks of worshipping his creator, is he by defintion of monotheism, not trying to worship your one god? Sure, you can disagree about what the creator has said and done, permitted and not permitted. You can disagree on how you describe him (a pantheon or collection of many gods with phyisical form to one invisible god without form and everything in between). However, by definition of monotheism, is not the other person always trying to worship your one god?

In the case of Islam, there is agreement on the description of God in Judaism. However, there is disagreement on what the creator has said or done, permitted and not permitted.

So how great is this disagreement? On a personal level, I agree that if Muhammad's revelation had said that the Torah was to be abandoned and replaced by the Quran because it was corrupt and no longer scripture, then Islam could not be for Jews. Although, personally, I do not believe the Quran says any such thing against the Torah. I personally feel that the Torah is necessary to fully understanding the Quran.

On the other hand, it could be best for Judaism to accept an Islam without the Torah as okay for non Jews (as a Noachide religion), as long as Muslims recognize that Islam is not for Jews. Unfortunately, there are always Muslims who insist that the Torah has been abandoned, but Islam is also for the Jews. Conversely, there are always Jews who insist that Islam is not even a noachide religion because it does not accept the Torah, therefore non Jews should follow some Torah compliant noachide religion developed for them by Jews, without following the Torah commandments for the Jews.