Do Muslims want to Assimilate?

[Tumah]

Did you vote?

I left just before I turned 18. I do recall having voted in absentia once. But I'm not so involved in the politics there. I do know that the ultra-Orthodox umbrella organization in the US is involved with getting their people out to vote.

 

[icehorse]

I was integrated, I was not assimilated. I pay my taxes, followed the law, worked alongside non-Jews. I did not watch American entertainment or perform secular (ie. prohibited by Judaism) activities. I contributed, while retaining my identity.

Can you give some examples of "secular activities" you didn't do?

 

[Kirran]

I left just before I turned 18. I do recall having voted in absentia once. But I'm not so involved in the politics there. I do know that the ultra-Orthodox umbrella organization in the US is involved with getting their people out to vote.

Cool, that's nice. Does voting in Israel contravene the idea that Jews should have political authority there?

 

[Tumah]

Cool, that's nice. Does voting in Israel contravene the idea that Jews should have political authority there?

Personally, I don't vote here. But with 80% of Jews in Israel not religious, its a catch-22. If they don't work with the government, the government is likely to create legislature that will negatively affect us. If I recall correctly, there are certain positions in the government that the Haredi parties will not fill in deferment to that idea though.

 

[Kirran]

Personally, I don't vote here. But with 80% of Jews in Israel not religious, its a catch-22. If they don't work with the government, the government is likely to create legislature that will negatively affect us. If I recall correctly, there are certain positions in the government that the Haredi parties will not fill in deferment to that idea though.

That is quite a catch-22. Anyway, we digress, but thanks for sharing.

 

[Tumah]

Can you give some examples of "secular activities" you didn't do?

Watch TV, movies or sports events, eat non-kosher, dress in a non-Jewish fashion, read secular entertainment books. Is that enough?

 

[icehorse]

Watch TV, movies or sports events, eat non-kosher, dress in a non-Jewish fashion, read secular entertainment books. Is that enough?

Ah ok, you're using the word secular differently than I am. I mean secular in the sense of keeping a strict separation between "church and state". For example, Sharia is the opposite of secular in that it puts matters of state under the authority of religion. "Secular" the way I'm using it, is a crucial and essential concept in how "the West's" countries are ruled.

 

[Aquitaine]

Does a society have some obligation to welcome immigrants?

If it wants to live like North Korea, isolated, then no. If it wants to enjoy the fruits of globalization, then yes.
One thing is for sure, it certainly has no obligation to be hostile to immigrants for no valid reason.

 

[RRex]

Do Muslims Want to Assimilate?

Not that I've noticed, particularly in Europe. They are going out of their way to antagonize the resident populations.

Europe, in accepting them en masse, has cut its own throat.

 

[Sakeenah]

I can imagine in theory "hosts being problematic", but do you have any examples?

Racist incidents are increasing in Europe. There were 47,210 racist crimes reported across the European Union in 2013.
And anti-racism organisation said this is only the tip of the iceberg because many go unreported.

Muslim women, people of african descent black europeans and Roma are reported to be the most at risk at racially motivated crimes.
Muslim women are more likely to be victim of islamophobic crimes than men and these crimes are often physical and very violent. According to the organisation CCIF 78% of the islamophobia victims in France were women.

Swedish police reports of crimes with an islamophobic motive increased by 69% from 2009-2013.
In many EU countries like Estonia,Greece,UK,Italy,Poland and Sweden the most violent attacks are against black and asian minorities.

The 2015 IHRC report on hate crimes faced by muslims show that 66% of those surveyed had experienced verbal abuse at one point. And 58% of those surveyed felt they had been treated with suspicion or being wrongly accused of something.

I hope these examples are enough. I've experienced discrimination and many of my family and friends have also experienced it.

 

[icehorse]

If it wants to live like North Korea, isolated, then no. If it wants to enjoy the fruits of globalization, then yes.
One thing is for sure, it certainly has no obligation to be hostile to immigrants for no valid reason.

Wouldn't you say you're proposing a false dilemma here?

I'd say that a prosperous, successful country has no need, and no obligation to allow immigrants whose values are hostile to the host country, to immigrate.

 

[icehorse]

Racist incidents are increasing in Europe. There were 47,210 racist crimes reported across the European Union in 2013.
And anti-racism organisation said this is only the tip of the iceberg because many go unreported.

Muslim women, people of african descent black europeans and Roma are reported to be the most at risk at racially motivated crimes.
Muslim women are more likely to be victim of islamophobic crimes than men and these crimes are often physical and very violent. According to the organisation CCIF 78% of the islamophobia victims in France were women.

Swedish police reports of crimes with an islamophobic motive increased by 69% from 2009-2013.
In many EU countries like Estonia,Greece,UK,Italy,Poland and Sweden the most violent attacks are against black and asian minorities.

The 2015 IHRC report on hate crimes faced by muslims show that 66% of those surveyed had experienced verbal abuse at one point. And 58% of those surveyed felt they had been treated with suspicion or being wrongly accused of something.

I hope these examples are enough. I've experienced discrimination and many of my family and friends have also experienced it.

Hi Sakeenah,

This post of yours offers an important perspective, thanks! What I find interesting is that their is a corresponding set of statistics that point in the opposite direction. So it would seem that the mistrust and misunderstandings occur in both directions.

BTW, I personally take great umbrage at the term "Islamophobia". I understand it's commonly used, but I think it's fundamentally a dishonest term. Islam is a set of ideas. It is NOT at all "phobic" to disagree with a set of ideas.

It strikes me that the idea of unfettered immigration was a bad one to start with. I believe the European leaders who started this trend underestimated the cultural differences. It strikes me that we need to be honest about the deep seated cultural differences before we can find a happy solution. For example, if Muslims immigrate to a European country with the hope to establish Sharia courts, that hope WILL INEVITABLY CAUSE CONFLICT. Next, you seem to conflate legitimate concerns about differences in values with racism, and that is also a mistake. The fact that I hate the very idea of Sharia does NOT make me a racist. Would you agree?

 

[Aquitaine]

Wouldn't you say you're proposing a false dilemma here?

I'd say that a prosperous, successful country has no need, and no obligation to allow immigrants whose values are hostile to the host country, to immigrate.

Oh, well if your question is about hostile immigrants then that changes everything.

 

[icehorse]

Oh, well if your question is about hostile immigrants then that changes everything.

I think a lot of the discussion revolves around the actual intentions of the immigrants. The fear is that many have no intention of assimilating or even of integrating (which appears to be a softer idea).

 

[LuisDantas]

Trouble is, not even natives truly want to be assimilated. The concept is a bit... tentative, I guess.

 

[Sakeenah]

Hi Sakeenah,

This post of yours offers an important perspective, thanks! What I find interesting is that their is a corresponding set of statistics that point in the opposite direction. So it would seem that the mistrust and misunderstandings occur in both directions.

BTW, I personally take great umbrage at the term "Islamophobia". I understand it's commonly used, but I think it's fundamentally a dishonest term. Islam is a set of ideas. It is NOT at all "phobic" to disagree with a set of ideas.

It strikes me that the idea of unfettered immigration was a bad one to start with. I believe the European leaders who started this trend underestimated the cultural differences. It strikes me that we need to be honest about the deep seated cultural differences before we can find a happy solution. For example, if Muslims immigrate to a European country with the hope to establish Sharia courts, that hope WILL INEVITABLY CAUSE CONFLICT. Next, you seem to conflate legitimate concerns about differences in values with racism, and that is also a mistake. The fact that I hate the very idea of Sharia does NOT make me a racist. Would you agree?

Hi Icehorse

The term islamophobia was first introduced as a concept in a 1991 Runnymede Trust report and defined as " unfounded hostility towards muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most muslims"

I agree It's not phobic to disagree with a set of ideas but hostility because a person has a set of ideas is phobic.

For example if someone says to me I think the hijab is opressive towards women, I would disagree but respect that person's opinion. I wouldnt consider that opinion islamophobic.
But if a person dislikes me for wearing hijab and decides to be hostile and abusive towards me than yes that person is islamophobic.

Many of us lived in Europe for 20-50 years..many are 2nd or third generation so I'm trying to understand the "major cultural differences" you are talking about.
Immigrants didn't move to Europe to " establish Shariah courts" they immigrated to create a better life for their families.

Again I do not think differences in values means racism and you aren't a racist because you hate the concept of Shariah. You are racist if you are violent or abusive towards a person because they don't share the same view as you in regards to shariah.

 

[Augustus]

I don't think this is as slippery as is often claimed. Instead of saying "the West", I'll speak as a secular humanist. When a secular humanist society welcomes immigrants, the immigrants should understand and embrace the core values of their hosts. Values such as:
...
- a non-supremacist mindset

I'm not sure I've ever met a secular humanist who wasn't absolutely convinced about the superiority of their own belief system. Having a supremacist mindset is pretty much a key tenet of secular humanism - 'we know The Truth and everybody should be like us'. (a supremacist mindset is not necessarily violent or oppressive, just one that sees other belief systems as inferior)

 

[icehorse]

I'm not sure I've ever met a secular humanist who wasn't absolutely convinced about the superiority of their own belief system. Having a supremacist mindset is pretty much a key tenet of secular humanism - 'we know The Truth and everybody should be like us'. (a supremacist mindset is not necessarily violent or oppressive, just one that sees other belief systems as inferior)

Just one counter example: Secularists lead the charge for freedom of religion. We defend the religious person's right to pursue their own religion more than religious folks tend to. While not always the case, when freedom of religion is attacked, it's almost always attacked by the religious themselves.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Sakeenah,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, I agree with much of what you said. The situation with Sharia seems to me to be quite dangerous. My view here might be a bit extreme, but I see that anyone who is advocating for Sharia - in any way - in a secular society, is bordering on treasonous or seditious activities. To advocate for Sharia is to attempt to undermine a secular country's constitution. It strikes me that this pernicious push towards Sharia is bound to cause mistrust and conflict, at the very least.

 

[Aquitaine]

Trouble is, not even natives truly want to be assimilated. The concept is a bit... tentative, I guess.

Exactly. There are plenty of natives in my country who hold views that I feel drag us down. Same in every country I guess.

Hi Icehorse

The term islamophobia was first introduced as a concept in a 1991 Runnymede Trust report and defined as " unfounded hostility towards muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most muslims"

I agree It's not phobic to disagree with a set of ideas but hostility because a person has a set of ideas is phobic.

For example if someone says to me I think the hijab is opressive towards women, I would disagree but respect that person's opinion. I wouldnt consider that opinion islamophobic.
But if a person dislikes me for wearing hijab and decides to be hostile and abusive towards me than yes that person is islamophobic.

Many of us lived in Europe for 20-50 years..many are 2nd or third generation so I'm trying to understand the "major cultural differences" you are talking about.
Immigrants didn't move to Europe to " establish Shariah courts" they immigrated to create a better life for their families.

Again I do not think differences in values means racism and you aren't a racist because you hate the concept of Shariah. You are racist if you are violent or abusive towards a person because they don't share the same view as you in regards to shariah.

I agree with most of your points, with the exception on the last one. Forgive me if I sound pedantic, but this is a pet peeve of mine: Islam is a religion, not a race; it is stupid and ill-advised to become abusive towards someone for sharing a different view in regards to Islamic concepts (i.e Sharia) but it is not racist.