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Do rights come from God?

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Perhaps, but here in the US (a constitutional republic), rights are equal for everyone; the government doesn't pick and choose who gets this or that right, or who doesn't. An exception where not everyone has the same rights would be monarchies, but that doesn't exist here in the US.

Ask Black or Hispanic whether the government and its agencies pick and choose.


This doesn't follow from that, and the US isn't taking rights from women.

Many states have taken the right of women to be owners of their own body

I don't know what people in Texas are talking about executing women for claiming their rights, but such "talk" (as you put it) is a free speech right covered by the 1st Amendment (the government is prohibited from issuing fines or arresting people for such talk), and the existence of such talk in itself doesn't corelate to such rights in question being deprived.

The fact women's rights are being eroded makes such talk the norm and acceptable. My reply would be execute anyone who murders a woman.


How is it important in such a way that pertains to whether or not rights come from God?
Which god?

I have heard of over 4200* gods, 3800 are omni creator gods.

Merely bringing your favourite god up does not actually mean your god exists

* exuding the millions of Hindu gods

Oh and...
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Rights are inherent. If they're imbued by someone or something (e.g. a god), then they aren't inherent.
This isn't either/or.

In your opinion, provide evidence of beyond human power and I'll listen.

Until then I'll consider humanity the source of rights
It wasn't a statement about reality, but about the construct. If you say that human rights are granted by society/human actors, then you are defining the thing by its negation.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It wasn't a statement about reality, but about the construct. If you say that human rights are granted by society/human actors, then you are defining the thing by its negation.

Nope I'm stating what it is.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I allow the possibility that a higher power might exist but I don't follow a religion.

Since societies are cooperative endeavors, citizens can be expected to trade in their right to do as they please in exchange for greater benefits. Fairness is crucial to success. A society in which a White, male child can prosper and a female, Black child, of equal intelligence, will struggle to survive must change or fail.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
As a non-religious person, I do not think that rights come from God or any other deity.

Rights come from society coming together and establishing what rights we have, agreeing what they are, and adhering to such an agreement. Without this, we have no rights - unless we're willing to fight and die to keep and preserve them.

Where does society get the right to tell us what we can and cannot do? Would that not require a higher authority to grant that right?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Where does society get the right to tell us what we can and cannot do? Would that not require a higher authority to grant that right?
The 'higher authority' is our mutual survival overriding our individual survival. We have a far better chance of surviving cooperatively than competitively. Unfortunately, this is not domething many humans recognize. Especially those who are thriving at the expense of those who are not.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope I'm stating what it is.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by what it is? Because what you've described is the opposite of the concept of human rights. Which, again, exists solely to argue that societal entities don't have the authority to grant or rescind certain privileges that humans retain inherently, arising from our nature.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Could you elaborate on what you mean by what it is? Because what you've described is the opposite of the concept of human rights. Which, again, exists solely to argue that societal entities don't have the authority to grant or rescind certain privileges that humans retain inherently, arising from our nature.

What nature? We are animals like any other, do rats, do tigers, do seagulls have inherent privileges? Civilisation builds society, society has whatever authority civilisation gives it to grant or rescind any rights.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The 'higher authority' is our mutual survival overriding our individual survival. We have a far better chance of surviving cooperatively than competitively. Unfortunately, this is not domething many humans recognize. Especially those who are thriving at the expense of those who are not.

Governments have authority from God, but only to do what is right and condemn what is wrong. This includes being just with the poor and disadvantaged.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What it is that makes us human.

Human Nature (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) If you want to read one write up about discourse on human nature.


Maybe that is the case, civilization still cannot be the source of human rights; this stance is that human rights do not exist.

I'm talking reality, not philosophy.

Why can civilisation not be the source of rights, you keep making this claim but don't support your claim.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm talking reality, not philosophy.
Yes, I noted this earlier, that I'm talking about the construct of what a human right is versus the practical reality of whether that thing exists or not.

Why can civilisation not be the source of rights, you keep making this claim but don't support your claim.
Because that is such a change in definition as to rob the concept of all meaningfulness. The concept of human rights exists to stand in contrast to socially constructed rights. That position, the non-existence of human rights, is the one that existed before Tertullian wrote to Scapula of "fundamental human right(s)" that were a "privilege of nature" and not conferred by human powers/authority.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, I noted this earlier, that I'm talking about the construct of what a human right is versus the practical reality of whether that thing exists or not.


Because that is such a change in definition as to rob the concept of all meaningfulness. The concept of human rights exists to stand in contrast to socially constructed rights. That position, the non-existence of human rights, is the one that existed before Tertullian wrote to Scapula of "fundamental human right(s)" that were a "privilege of nature" and not conferred by human powers/authority.


Yes we know human rights exist in reality.

The definition of human right is : a right which is believed to belong to every person.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I've repeatedly heard the assertion that rights come from God. Do you think rights come from God? If not, then where do you think they come from, or how do we have them?
As far as I can see, the concept of rights proceeds from the lived experiences of sensate creatures, and the ability to experience empathy. We see in ourselves the capacity to suffer and this same quality in other lifeforms. That's what I base my arguments on basic rights on.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Ask Black or Hispanic whether the government and its agencies pick and choose.
I am hispanic - that's right, oops is correct. :eek:

Anyhow, in an awkward way, you're actually presenting a good rebuttal to my assertion, if you actually mean illegal aliens. The Biden admin is letting illegal aliens enter the country.

BTW equating hispanics and illegal aliens with each other is a false association fallacy. Not every illegal alien is hispanic, and not every hispanic is an illegal alien.

You can also say "ask Donald Trump and many of the people who worked for him whether the government and its agencies pick and choose", or "ask Jan. 6th protesters whether the government and its agencies pick and choose."

You're actually correct, there is a 2-tier system of justice, which is a double standard; I stand corrected.

Many states have taken the right of women to be owners of their own body
Well, you'll have to be a bit more specific; I prefer avoiding making guesses or assumptions about what people are referring to.

The fact women's rights are being eroded makes such talk the norm and acceptable.
This seems like a non sequitur - you have created layers of things to unpack here, and I don't see how this complex claim relates to the thread question, so I'm not going to bother spending my time trying to unpack it, to in-turn respond to it.

My reply would be execute anyone who murders a woman.
Ok, you're specifically talking about Texas, which is the state that probably has not only more of an affinity towards applying the death penalty than any other state in the US, it's probably a bit more of an affinity for it than it is for the rest of the states that also have the death penalty.

Since you're specifying women, would you say the same for anyone who murders a man - or a baby?

Which god?
:shrug: Well, I suppose this question can be responded to with - whichever god that those who say that such rights come from it are referring to, or - pick one (or more), anyone.

However, in general it doesn't matter which god; it's a "does there exist" question, not a "for a specific instance" question. The ambiguity that your question implies is not present in the OP question.

I have heard of over 4200* gods, 3800 are omni creator gods.

Merely bringing your favourite god up does not actually mean your god exists

* exuding the millions of Hindu gods
Personally I don't have a god, as I am not religious.

I would say that merely bringing your favorite god up does not actually mean your god exists

* not exuding any gods

Oh, I guess I'm not allowed to ask for clarification. :worried:
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Where does society get the right to tell us what we can and cannot do?
This is a rather interesting question that you pose - you're sort of asking this: where does society get the right to give or take rights?

In effect, there seems to be a "might makes right" issue involved, in which case it's society giving itself the right to give and take rights, which is technically what we actually have.

One issue with this question is that it's vague about what is meant by "society", if you want to get more specific about what the source or foundation is for those rights that can be given or taken.

What I mean is the source or foundation could be at the grassroots level of society on one extreme, or some authoritarian group or individual on the other extreme.

How religion plays a role in determining what rights are given or taken is another parameter. For example, in a country like the US, we have the 1st clause of the 1st Amendment in the Bill of Rights, which prohibits merger of church and state (whether or not the government in the US adheres to it is a different question), but places like Iran, Israel, and Saudi Arabia contrast as theocracies or theocratically-based nations.

If the government says that we do not have separation of church and state, then it can send its agents after those who don't adhere to the state religion tp administer some sort of blunt and rather severe penalty; this sort of thing actually happens in Saudi Arabia and other countries controlled by theocratic regimes.

How mighty that might in question is that the government has, as far as I can tell, is a function of the ratio of physical force and arms that the government possesses to what the grassroot individuals possess.

There's that expression that the pen is mightier than the sword & that's true if you're merely referring to influence and persuasiveness. The proverbial pen is really all bark and no bite. When government bans grassroots individuals from keeping and bearing arms, and enforces that ban, it doesn't have to worry about becoming preventing itself from becoming derelict (with its obligations to society), corrupt, or tyrannical, since it now knows that grassroots individuals have been defanged thus rendered harmless to itself.

That's not the result of some deity that's in control, that's just a bunch of oligarchs, crony capitalists, their minions, etc. all making such policy decisions at the helm of government, but in at least some cases they do so by invoking religion.

Now that I think of it, rights don't come from a deity or government, they're only taken away; there are 3 reasons I can think of for rights being taken away:

1. religion
2. socialism/authoritarianism
3. there's a victim of a crime involved

To me, the 3rd one is the only qualified reason for taking away rights, and by "rights", I mean types of actions. For instance, killing an innocent individual (i.e. murder) is a type of action, and government takes away the "right" to that action; that innocent individual is a victim of that action, and laws that ban murder are there to protect victims.

Having to close your shop 5 times a day during prayer times, on the other hand, is not something that's done for the sake of protecting any victim; it's just an arbitrary religious rule.

One could argue that a socialist/authoritarian policy of having a $20/hour minimum wage is there to protect employees from being victims, but one could also argue that it both victimizes employees by pricing them out of existence as well as small businesses that are rendered economically impossible to function (which includes or entails creating or keeping job positions open).

The best way to answer your question is that it's really grassroots individuals as potential victims of crimes coming together and deciding what we can and cannot do is the basis for what gives us the right to be able to do that, but whether or not they have a good basis or reason for the laws they come up with (i.e., religion, socialism/authoritarianism, or there's a victim of a crime involved) is a different question.

Would that not require a higher authority to grant that right?
Nope.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
As far as I can see, the concept of rights proceeds from the lived experiences of sensate creatures, and the ability to experience empathy. We see in ourselves the capacity to suffer and this same quality in other lifeforms. That's what I base my arguments on basic rights on.
This is along the lines of my thinking & what we're doing when we establish what rights we have or don't have, we're coming to an agreement about what they are, and what actions to take against those who do something that they have no right to do (e.g., stealing, murder, rape, vandalism, fraud, arson).
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
if you actually mean illegal aliens.

No i don't and i never said anything about illegals, thats your straw man


BTW equating hispanics and illegal aliens

See above

You're actually correct, there is a 2-tier system of justice,

Thank you

Well, you'll have to be a bit more specific;

Why? You figured it out later

Ok, you're specifically talking about Texas,

Any state that has eroded women's rights.

Personally I don't have a god, as I am not religious

Snap

Oh, I guess I'm not allowed to ask for clarification

You can ask. A spelling error was used against me, it's my standard response to such ignorant.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
No i don't
Ok, in that case I choose myself as the hispanic to ask:

Forum-dweller me: Yo, hispanic me, does the government and its agencies pick and choose, here in the US?

Hispanic me: Forum-dweller me, I, as a hispanic, haven't come across any pick and choose incidents by the government and its agencies.

Forum-dweller me: Ok, thank you.

Hispanic me: No problemo.


and i never said anything about illegals, thats your straw man




See above
Learn the difference between a conditional statement, which is part of a hypothetical syllogism, and a strawman. It's a basic prerequisite for being qualified to engage in debates.

Thank you
You're very welcome! :grin:

Why? You figured it out later
Mkay - if you say so.

Any state that has eroded women's rights.
Oh.

Snap



You can ask. A spelling error was used against me, it's my standard response to such ignorant.
I'm also not a mind reader. :eyes:
 
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