• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Scientists Have "Faith" in the Same Sense some Christians do?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Your thoughts?
I'll just skip several pages and put this out:
Creationists don't just think scientists have faith, they so desperately need a "level playing field" to keep their myths and fantasies alive, on life support, that they have created this silly notion of "evolutionist" to try to make it appear that evolution requires faith just as a creationist does. But, to any who want to attach this "ist" is a sound scientific theory will tons of evidence to support it, I invite them to become "oxygen combustionist" and go into a close room with inadequate ventilation, crank the oxygen tanks to full blast, and light up a smoke, a joint, a favorite candle or incense, and I'll read about how that went in tomorrow's news.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
If a man is swallowed by a large fish, he will not live (the ones that could actually eat/swallow a person have teeth, and no oxygen to breath in their stomachs, which are also filled with digestive acids). There are no places to stand that allow you to see the entire Earth. Pi is not equal to 3. The different languages of the world did not come from the same place and time in ancient Babylon. Though there is plenty of evidence of severe regional flooding where flood myths are found, there is no evidence that any of these floods were global. Also, human parthenogenesis is not a possibility.


Can you explain exactly what kind of fish that is exactly ?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Can you explain exactly what kind of fish that is exactly ?
There aren't many that can actually swallow a human. And while the account of Jonah just gives us "large sea creature," Matthew specifically states a whale. Regardless, we don't have many candidates in the running for those who could actually manage to swallow a human, and none of them would allow for a human to survive for three days and three nights.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
A common enough criticism of various scientific explanations (especially the theory of evolution) is that it requires "as much or more faith" to accept them as it does to believe in a scriptural-based alternative to them (such as creationism).

This criticism is usually levied by Christians, and while "faith" in Christianity can mean more than one thing, it seems to me that the Christians who employ this particular criticism of the sciences generally tend to mean by "faith" "a staunchly held belief or trust in something in the absence of conclusive evidence for it". Hence, the notion that scientific explanations require as much or more faith to accept as religious explanations seems to boil down to a charge that scientific explanations require a staunchly held belief or trust in something in the absence of conclusive evidence for it.

As I see it, the problem with the criticism is at least three-fold. First, it utterly ignores the fact that most scientists do not "staunchly" believe in a scientific explanation (such as evolution), but rather only tentatively accept it as currently the best available explanation, and would be willing to discard it should a better explanation come about. Contrast this with the ideal of Christian faith as unshakeable. So, to equate the alleged "faith" of scientists with the faith of Christians would seem to be a mistake.

Second, the criticism again utterly ignores the fact that widely accepted scientific explanations tend to have an overwhelming weight of reasoning and evidence in favor of them. Contrast this with the generally underwhelming evidence for Christian scriptural-based explanations. To say that scientists have a Christian like faith in scientific explanations would be like saying that scientists blindly base their acceptance of such explanations on some kind of authoritative scripture -- which they do not, and which would actually contradict the very epistemic foundations of the sciences if they did.

Last, some people like to argue that the sciences are based on scientific axioms which are equivalent to "things taken on faith". Yet, scientists would most likely discard or modify axioms that conflicted with experimental observations, but people who take things on faith tend to value doing so steadfastly, even in the face of conflicting reasoning and evidence. Hence, there seems to be a distinction between how scientific axioms and things taken on faith are treated by their respective communities.

For those, and for other reasons, the criticism of some Christians that scientific explanations require as much or more faith as religious explanations seems to me shallow and simplistic.

Your thoughts?

Science is nearly the opposite of religion (but not quite), since it is always changing with new evidence, while religion remains the same, ignoring all contradicting evidence. Still, scientists must take *some* things on intuition, or "faith" in some sense. Mathematics is the exact opposite of religion as NOTHING is accepted to be true without absolute, rigorous proof. Although in some sense mathematics is not unlike religion in that many mathematical concepts can never be observed like infinity etc. Still, the two are polar opposites in many respects.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
Not a meaningful coherent response. Science is not based on opinions. If people build skyscrapers based on opinions they will fall down.

So you give one example of something not based on opinion/assumption and correlate the rest not being based on opinion/assumption. Whereas if you were being honest, it's not difficult to find any of the uber amounts of it that are based on opinion/assumptions/guesses/could's/"thought to have's."
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
A common enough criticism of various scientific explanations (especially the theory of evolution) is that it requires "as much or more faith" to accept them as it does to believe in a scriptural-based alternative to them (such as creationism).

This criticism is usually levied by Christians, and while "faith" in Christianity can mean more than one thing, it seems to me that the Christians who employ this particular criticism of the sciences generally tend to mean by "faith" "a staunchly held belief or trust in something in the absence of conclusive evidence for it". Hence, the notion that scientific explanations require as much or more faith to accept as religious explanations seems to boil down to a charge that scientific explanations require a staunchly held belief or trust in something in the absence of conclusive evidence for it.

As I see it, the problem with the criticism is at least three-fold. First, it utterly ignores the fact that most scientists do not "staunchly" believe in a scientific explanation (such as evolution), but rather only tentatively accept it as currently the best available explanation, and would be willing to discard it should a better explanation come about. Contrast this with the ideal of Christian faith as unshakeable. So, to equate the alleged "faith" of scientists with the faith of Christians would seem to be a mistake.

Second, the criticism again utterly ignores the fact that widely accepted scientific explanations tend to have an overwhelming weight of reasoning and evidence in favor of them. Contrast this with the generally underwhelming evidence for Christian scriptural-based explanations. To say that scientists have a Christian like faith in scientific explanations would be like saying that scientists blindly base their acceptance of such explanations on some kind of authoritative scripture -- which they do not, and which would actually contradict the very epistemic foundations of the sciences if they did.

Last, some people like to argue that the sciences are based on scientific axioms which are equivalent to "things taken on faith". Yet, scientists would most likely discard or modify axioms that conflicted with experimental observations, but people who take things on faith tend to value doing so steadfastly, even in the face of conflicting reasoning and evidence. Hence, there seems to be a distinction between how scientific axioms and things taken on faith are treated by their respective communities.

For those, and for other reasons, the criticism of some Christians that scientific explanations require as much or more faith as religious explanations seems to me shallow and simplistic.

Your thoughts?


VERY well said!
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The theory of evolution is entirely based on faith if one assumes it is correct. It has not been proven correct and probably cannot be. One must believe it is truth on faith.


BALONEY! Does the Earth actually orbit the sun or do silly scientists just take it on 'faith' that it does? The EXACT SAME scientific method that had allowed scientists to conclude that the Earth DOES orbit the sun is the EXACT SAME scientific method that scientists use to validate the ToE. You can't accept the method in one case and then reject it in another.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The theory of evolution is entirely based on faith if one assumes it is correct. It has not been proven correct and probably cannot be. One must believe it is truth on faith.


Hey David... I'm still waiting for you to provide us with an example of a experiment that follows the scientific method and tests your theory of a creator God. You kept claiming you had one in a previous thread, but then you just stopped posting.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
A common enough criticism of various scientific explanations (especially the theory of evolution) is that it requires "as much or more faith" to accept them as it does to believe in a scriptural-based alternative to them (such as creationism).

It's clear that fundamental beliefs require faith, but I don't see how science can require "more faith" than creationism. It is easy to believe things that you are taught to be true, not harder. It doesn't get difficult to believe things unless those things are challenged, or tested, in some way. And anything that withstands such a challenge becomes stronger.

Perhaps, creationists have simply gone down their particular line of thought so deeply that they have difficulty believing in anything else? So scientific explanations now require "more faith" for them to accept, because they rejected those explanations from the beginning.

The hardest thing in the world to do is change one's mind.:(
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Science is nearly the opposite of religion (but not quite), since it is always changing with new evidence, while religion remains the same, ignoring all contradicting evidence. Still, scientists must take *some* things on intuition, or "faith" in some sense. Mathematics is the exact opposite of religion as NOTHING is accepted to be true without absolute, rigorous proof. Although in some sense mathematics is not unlike religion in that many mathematical concepts can never be observed like infinity etc. Still, the two are polar opposites in many respects.
Math is language you seem confused. A boards strength is independent of math. Math is dependent on the strenth of the 2x4. Like wise a book of words can never ever determine the landscape the landscape determines the words. The sun rises and falls independent of science and religion no narrative in science nor religion is determining its rising and its setting. The nut job Neil borh in 1927 proposed the collapse of the wave particle is due to the observer. 85% of the physics world bought into this childish nonsense which is exactly how religion generally understands nature. Apparently their religious roots in 1927 was invisible to them. There are a lot of things in nature invisible the Copenhagen interpretation is empericism proof the proof itself, which we call clueless!!!! Since clueless exists, invisible to the clueless, how can one explain to the clueless a something that is invisible to them actually exists? They look around as I am pointing to them!!!!! I am all about nature you are all about TV shows about nature. That just makes you I suppose a tourist? I don't think you are a poacher, or a patient maybe just a tourist. Go back to your rv and watch TV there is nothing in this forest but just stupid stupid trees and me. Watching the poachers, patients and tourists getting lost amongst the trees.
 

McBell

Unbound
Math is language you seem confused. A boards strength is independent of math. Math is dependent on the strenth of the 2x4. Like wise a book of words can never ever determine the landscape the landscape determines the words. The sun rises and falls independent of science and religion no narrative in science nor religion is determining its rising and its setting. The nut job Neil borh in 1927 proposed the collapse of the wave particle is due to the observer. 85% of the physics world bought into this childish nonsense which is exactly how religion generally understands nature. Apparently their religious roots in 1927 was invisible to them. There are a lot of things in nature invisible the Copenhagen interpretation is empericism proof the proof itself, which we call clueless!!!! Since clueless exists, invisible to the clueless, how can one explain to the clueless a something that is invisible to them actually exists? They look around as I am pointing to them!!!!! I am all about nature you are all about TV shows about nature. That just makes you I suppose a tourist? I don't think you are a poacher, or a patient maybe just a tourist. Go back to your rv and watch TV there is nothing in this forest but just stupid stupid trees and me. Watching the poachers, patients and tourists getting lost amongst the trees.
What?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
There aren't many that can actually swallow a human. And while the account of Jonah just gives us "large sea creature," Matthew specifically states a whale. Regardless, we don't have many candidates in the running for those who could actually manage to swallow a human, and none of them would allow for a human to survive for three days and three nights.

Actually that fish was not an ordinary fish as we see or know a fish or whale to be.

It had a precise agenda to accomplish, that no ordinary fish or whale could not do.

In the book of Jonah you will find the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.
Jonah 1:17

Therefore this great fish, was not a fish as what we know a fish or whale to be.

This great fish was designed ( created ) for certain purpose by the Lord. And will not be found no where on Earth since the time of Jonah.

This is why you can look the earth all over and will not find such a fish or whale like it.

It's use was for a one time event, and then afterwards it had no further use.

It's like the flood of Noah's, it too had a one time event, and then afterwards it too had no further use. This is why scientist will not find any trace of the flood of Noah's.

All we have is faith to believe what is Written That the flood of Noah's did in fact happen. There are those who choose to believe it did happen and there are those who choose it did not happen.

So the controversy continues.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This great fish was designed ( created ) for certain purpose by the Lord. And will not be found no where on Earth since the time of Jonah.
Why would god need to go out of his way to create a "one time use" "fish of sorts" for the task? And if he is so concerned about us believing, why not leave any hard evidence of this "single use" fish or whale?
It's like the flood of Noah's, it too had a one time event, and then afterwards it too had no further use. This is why scientist will not find any trace of the flood of Noah's.
Floods leave behind evidence that they happened. We can even state there probably were real floods that inspired stories such as Gilgamesh and Noah, floods that occurred where such stories were born. But what we don't find is evidence of a global-wide flood.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Why would god need to go out of his way to create a "one time use" "fish of sorts" for the task? And if he is so concerned about us believing, why not leave any hard evidence of this "single use" fish or whale?

Floods leave behind evidence that they happened. We can even state there probably were real floods that inspired stories such as Gilgamesh and Noah, floods that occurred where such stories were born. But what we don't find is evidence of a global-wide flood.


Maybe it's because God wants to see if people can believe his word.
But then again God did leave something, but still people will not believe.

What about the dinosaurs bones that are left overs from the first earth age, They are God's witnesses of that world that then was.
But yet People still will not believe.

So if God did leave that great fish. People still would not believe.
People will not believe the dinosaurs bones which they are proven to be Millions of years old.
Of a world that then was. It's all there in the Bible, God's word.all about that world and what caused God to destroy it.

That now we have the remains leftovers of that world that then was.The Dinosaurs bones are proof of that world that then was.
But yet People still will not believe.

So do you really believe that a fish will convince people, when we have the Dinosaurs bones, but people still will not believe.
So you believe one fish will do it. When all those Dinosaurs bones done nothing.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Maybe it's because God wants to see if you can believe his word.
Why believe the word of Jehovah instead of the words of Zeus? Or Osiris? Or Odin? Or Zarathustra? Or Zoroaster?
What about the dinosaurs bones that are left overs from the first earth age,
Dinosaurs didn't exist during the "first age" of the Earth, and they didn't even all live during the same epoch.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
BALONEY! Does the Earth actually orbit the sun or do silly scientists just take it on 'faith' that it does? The EXACT SAME scientific method that had allowed scientists to conclude that the Earth DOES orbit the sun is the EXACT SAME scientific method that scientists use to validate the ToE. You can't accept the method in one case and then reject it in another.

There is no evidence that the Earth orbits the Sun. It is just as plausible to conclude that the Sun and stars orbits the Earth. Even Einstein was honest enough to admit this. A lot of people still lack the honesty and ability to know themselves. Both are taken by faith/confidence. I know stubbornness will make you think differently, however due to confirmation bias of one model.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
Why believe the word of Jehovah instead of the words of Zeus? Or Osiris? Or Odin? Or Zarathustra? Or Zoroaster?

Dinosaurs didn't exist during the "first age" of the Earth, and they didn't even all live during the same epoch.

Many think that it's scientifically impossible that many dinosaurs even existed, with their tremendous size, etc.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So you give one example of something not based on opinion/assumption and correlate the rest not being based on opinion/assumption. Whereas if you were being honest, it's not difficult to find any of the uber amounts of it that are based on opinion/assumptions/guesses/could's/"thought to have's."
You presented contradiction. Opinion is not the same as an assumption in science.

o·pin·ion noun
  1. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
    "I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance"
    synonyms: belief, judgment, thought(s), (way of) thinking, mind, (point of) view, viewpoint, outlook, attitude, stance, position, perspective, persuasion, standpoint; More

    • the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.
      "the changing climate of opinion"
    • an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.
From: undsci.berkeley.edu/article/basic_assumptions

What is an assumption in science?

The process of science builds reliable knowledge about the natural world. ... The process of building scientific knowledge relies on a few basic assumptions that are worth acknowledging. Science operates on the assumptions that: There are natural causes for things that happen in the world around us.

The principle assumption in science is that our physical existence is consistent, uniform, and predictable. Every research project, theory and hypothesis that that is tested makes predictions. These assumptions are tested millions of times over the years and they have not failed yet.
 
Top