Do we owe God for sin?

[Kolibri]

I did not say the Christian Greek Scriptures were "hijacking" other verses. I said Christianity hijacked the psalm you quoted to support an idea it does not but yes, she has done so with other Tanakh verses as well. The original writers of the NT knew what the verses of the Hebrew bible they quoted meant and said but Christianity has re efined a lot of them.

So I have a frame of reference then, what parts of the Christian Greek Scriptures do you hold to have the same weight of canon as the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures?

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

all knowing and omniscience are terms we came up with to describe God. We get these things from various scriptures. But note how many of these verses are present-tense.

"And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account." - Hebrews 4:13

"For the eyes of Jehovah are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him." - 2 Chronicles 16:9a

He rules forever by his might.
His eyes keep watch on the nations.
Those who are stubborn should not exalt themselves.
- Psalm 66:7

The eyes of Jehovah are everywhere,
Watching both the bad and the good.
- Proverbs 15:3

His ability to foreknow things is also demonstrated by fulfilled prophesies, but his exercise of that power must be self-regulated. This allows us, humans and angels, to be free moral agents with the ability to choose and to be accountable for our own actions.

"Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River or the gods of the Am'or-ites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah." - Joshua 24:15

Do you believe god knows the future? Or not? Don't quote scripture, just tell me what YOU think and believe.

 

[Kolibri]

Do you believe god knows the future? Or not? Don't quote scripture, just tell me what YOU think and believe.

He knows his purpose to make Ge 1:28 a reality by the end of the '7th day' will be fulfilled. He does not know if I individually will remain in a saved condition so as to see that day become a reality.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

He knows his purpose to make Ge 1:28 a reality by the end of the '7th day' will be fulfilled. He does not know if I individually will remain in a saved condition so as to see that day become a reality.

So god does not know all? Does not know the future?

 

[Eileen]

So I have a frame of reference then, what parts of the Christian Greek Scriptures do you hold to have the same weight of canon as the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures?

In context much of the NT is quite correct - some has been mistranslated and some of the manuscripts used by the English translators have been redacted or edited from earlier manuscripts. This can be proven and has been by several scholars and by physical evidence also the translators of the English bible did not have access to many earlier manuscripts that have now been found since the original translations were made. And there is physical evidence from the manuscripts they did use that they actually changed the word order of some verse-thus changing the meaning. of the verse. I do not accept everything in the English NT as it is translated to be accurate but It had been my experience that with study and research, the examination of the manuscripts both newer and older, the help of Hebrew and Greek scholars, etc. (all of which is one great blessing the internet offers us) a more accurate translation can be made. I am actually now in an online class from Jerusalem presented by a Hebrew speaking Jew who fully believes Yeshua is the Messiah, High Priest and King. We are working through translating Paul's epistles from the earliest manuscripts available.

If you are asking me if I count the NT as Scripture, I have to side with the NT authors who plainly state that the NT is not the the Scripture (Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim) they were basing their teachings on. The NT in its original manuscripts are very important-they do explain something's the Tanakh only hints at but if a translation in the NT contradicts the Tanakh I start looking at it's history.

My class is starting so I must cut this short. Do you believe everything in the English bible is absolutely accurate?

 

[Kolibri]

So god does not know all? Does not know the future?

you are placing this in an "all or nothing" category and that isn't the case, scripturally.

God has the capacity to completely know the future, and he has demonstrated that by such things as naming Cyrus, 200 years in advance, as the one that would used by God to release the Jews from Babylonian captivity.
The whole of the book of Revelation is a series of visions about things that take place in the then future "Lord's Day".
Daniel chapter 11 and the first part of chapter 12 define a pushing between successive rulers that were collectively known simply as "the king of the north" and "the king of the south".

Yes, God has the capacity to see the future perfectly and he has at times used it. But he does not use it to determine eternally individual salvation or damnation. Predestination as taught by Calvinism is not a valid Bible teaching.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

you are placing this in an "all or nothing" category and that isn't the case, scripturally.

God has the capacity to completely know the future, and he has demonstrated that by such things as naming Cyrus, 200 years in advance, as the one that would used by God to release the Jews from Babylonian captivity.
The whole of the book of Revelation is a series of visions about things that take place in the then future "Lord's Day".
Daniel chapter 11 and the first part of chapter 12 define a pushing between successive rulers that were collectively known simply as "the king of the north" and "the king of the south".

Yes, God has the capacity to see the future perfectly and he has at times used it. But he does not use it to determine individual salvation or damnation. Predestination as taught by Calvinism is not a valid Bible teaching.

Ok. Glad I have that clear. God selectively knows the future. Check.

 

[Kolibri]

My class is starting so I must cut this short. Do you believe everything in the English bible is absolutely accurate?

"That is a loaded question." was my first response. What I believe is this: The original writings were done by men who wrote "as they were moved by holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:21) This was God's infallible word.

We have no known originals in existence today. What we have are thousands of fragments and copies of ancient Bibles available for comparison. Not too long ago a fragment of John's gospel was found that dates to within about 25 years of the original. It is now known as the Papyrus Rylands 457 (P52). It contains what is John 18:31-33, 37, 38 in the modern Bible and is preserved at the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England.

By comparing these ancient texts that are available to us, the copyist errors and deliberate misdirections can be spotted and the originals can be "restored" to us. Isaiah 40:8 can be proved true: "The word of our God endures forever."

English bibles, like bibles of all languages, show varying degrees of scholarship. Some will be easier to learn 'the truth' from than others. (John 17:17) And humility on the part of the translators is also a factor. They need to be willing to adjust renderings when new evidence presents itself.

I personally find the words of Daniel 12:4 comforting. In "the time of the end","many will rove about [that is in the book itself] and the true knowledge will be come abundant." That could not be if the thoughts were not restorable during "the time of the end."

 

[Eileen]

"That is a loaded question." was my first response. What I believe is this: The original writings were done by men who wrote "as they were moved by holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:21) This was God's infallible word.

We have no known originals in existence today. What we have are thousands of fragments and copies of ancient Bibles available for comparison. Not too long ago a fragment of John's gospel was found that dates to within about 25 years of the original. It is now known as the Papyrus Rylands 457 (P52). It contains what is John 18:31-33, 37, 38 in the modern Bible and is preserved at the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England. We are using P46 and Codex Sinaiticus.

By comparing these ancient texts that are available to us, the copyist errors and deliberate misdirections can be spotted and the originals can be "restored" to us. Isaiah 40:8 can be proved true: "The word of our God endures forever." I agree!

English bibles, like bibles of all languages, show varying degrees of scholarship. Some will be easier to learn 'the truth' from than others. (John 17:17) And humility on the part of the translators is also a factor. They need to be willing to adjust renderings when new evidence presents itself. And that is a major problem for many people.

I personally find the words of Daniel 12:4 comforting. In "the time of the end","many will rove about [that is in the book itself] and the true knowledge will be come abundant." That could not be if the thoughts were not restorable during "the time of the end."

I agree and I think the fact that we now have access to more and older manuscripts and that there are people willing and able to work at translating them are signs of this restoration happening. These are exciting times we live in even though they are also difficult.

I do not know what I am doing wrong-you will have to expand this again.

 

[Kolibri]

If you are asking me if I count the NT as Scripture, I have to side with the NT authors who plainly state that the NT is not the the Scripture (Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim) they were basing their teachings on. The NT in its original manuscripts are very important-they do explain something's the Tanakh only hints at but if a translation in the NT contradicts the Tanakh I start looking at it's history.

Reading through this again, I thought to expand on my own stance in this regard.

It is that the 27 books that we know of as the Christian Greek Scriptures are canonical, not because they were ratified in the church from the 2nd Century onward, but because one of the gifts of the spirit that existed while the Christian congregation was in its infancy was "discernment of inspired expressions." (1 Cor 12:10; 13:8-10) Once the last of the Twelve died, the reliable chain of those that could discern through the spirit directly, what was inspired and what was not, was broken. Because they were also "inspired" they also can be classified as canon of equal weight as the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures - and should be as equally restorable.

We have to consider overall harmony as you noted. John wrote that "we originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us;...By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error." (1 John 4:6) Rather than promoting dogmatism, John was showing that spiritual truth comes from genuine Christians, not from worldly sources. Because of the lack of harmony with what came before John's death, and because of the foretold apostasy during which the wheat would be lost among the weeds, I give no weight to later apocryphal works.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Do we owe God for sin?

I would answer simply NO ...
rather we owe the person we sinned against for the sin we may
have committed against them .. we only owe to our Creator that
we keep as best we are able the laws he gave us to live by ...

and at times we may miss the target ... that done not prevent us
from trying again

 

[Yeshua1984]

Exactly!

Eileen,

I would have to say that we do not technically owe God for sin. It's more that sin causes death for us because it separates us from a perfect, sinless God.

 

[Eileen]

Eileen,

I would have to say that we do not technically owe God for sin. It's more that sin causes death for us because it separates us from a perfect, sinless God.

A thought about this idea that we are separated from HaShem by our sin.

First, I must say that I understand there is a separation but He tells us in His Torah how that separation can be repaired by teshuva-repentance and return. HaShem went looking for Adam and Eve after they sinned.( I wonder what would have happened if they had taken responsibility for that sin rather than blame someone else) and He interacted with them. He spoke to Cain before and after he killed Abel, He made contact with Abram and spoke to him. HaShem directly (or by a messenger) interacted with many individuals and nations.

Sin indeed separates us from HaShem but HaShem-in His Torah showed us what was necessary to repair that separation. It required something from us individually (or corporately as the case may be). HaShem took into account that we could disobey (sin) and laid out a way for us to draw close to Him again. It is not all about making sacrifice and offerings. It begins with true teshuva and without that, sacrifice and offerings are useless but with it they are a sweet savor to Him.

David sinned in the matter of Bathsheba and there were consequences for that sin but he is called a friend of God for his right-doings, his active reverence and obedience to HaShem and His instructions'. When his sins were pointed out, he repented and turned back.

Several times the nation of Israel sinned against their Elohim but when she repented and returned to Him and He drew near to her again. There are a great many examples of people and nations sinning, repenting,returning and HaShem 'drawing near' to them again. He told us what He considered sin and also told us how to deal with in when we did sin. That is a very good Father!!!

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Do we owe God for sin?

I would answer simply NO ...
rather we owe the person we sinned against for the sin we may
have committed against them .. we only owe to our Creator that
we keep as best we are able the laws he gave us to live by ...

and at times we may miss the target ... that done not prevent us
from trying again

Uzzah seems like a bloke who tried his best, yet all he did was put his hand on the ark... and God struck him down and he died.

I think we often fail to recognise the absolute holiness of God. He is pure, He does not tolerate sin. The ark falling into the dirt would have been better than coming into contact with the sinful hand of a human being. What wondrous love is this, that our holy and utterly pure God would step down into this sinful world and die for sinners, nailing our debt to the cross so that we may be saved from His holy and righteous wrath and live with Him in eternity, freed from our bondage to sin.

 

[Kolibri]

The difference between a perfect man and an imperfect man is that the perfect man does not have a weakness for sin. In order to sin against God, a perfect man's sin has to be deliberate. This one would not have the struggle that Paul described at Romans 7:13-25. Where there is deliberate sin, there is no forgiveness left for that one.

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgement and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition." - Hebrews 10:26,27

Did Adam have an "accurate knowledge of the truth"?

"Also, Adam was not deceived." - 1 Timothy 2:14a

"Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come." - Roman 5:14

What is the distinction? Adam's sin, being deliberate in the face of accurate knowledge, incurs death with no hope of restorable life.

"If anyone catches sight of his brother committing a sin that does not incur death, he will ask, and God will give life to him, yes, to those not committing sin that incurs death. There is a sin that does incur death. It is concerning that sin that I do not tell him to make request. All unrighteousness is sin, and yet there is a sin that does not incur death." - 1 John 5:16,17

 

[Kolibri]

Uzzah seems like a bloke who tried his best, yet all he did was put his hand on the ark... and God struck him down and he died.

I think we often fail to recognise the absolute holiness of God. He is pure, He does not tolerate sin. The ark falling into the dirt would have been better than coming into contact with the sinful hand of a human being. What wondrous love is this, that our holy and utterly pure God would step down into this sinful world and die for sinners, nailing our debt to the cross so that we may be saved from His holy and righteous wrath and live with Him in eternity, freed from our bondage to sin.

Had they transported the Ark as commanded in the first place, Uzzah would not have been at risk. Since it was probably a reflex action on Uzzah's part and not a pre-meditated thing, we likely will see him in the earthly resurrection.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Had they transported the Ark as commanded in the first place, Uzzah would not have been at risk. Since it was probably a reflex action on Uzzah's part and not a pre-meditated thing, we likely will see him in the earthly resurrection.

Sure, I wasn't commenting on his final destination, as to that I have no idea, only that God is just in His judgements. God takes His holiness very seriously.

 

[Eileen]

Sultan wrote- I think we often fail to recognise the absolute holiness of God And I most emphatically agree!
I do not doubt your love and respect for God but I can not agree with your conclusions.

What wondrous love is this, that our holy and step down into this sinful world and die think for sinners, so that we may be saved from His holy and righteous wrath and live with Him in eternity, freed from our bondage to sin.

HaHaShem can not die in any way and remain Elohim. HaShem is life and the source of all life and He can not become non-life or without life.
Shem does not 'step down'-we are to step up! (not becoming Gods ourselves) but step up to what He created us to be -and He told us how to do that.

Our "bondage" to sin is self imposed we do not have to sin! It is our choice to transgress Torah (sin) or not transgress Torah. 1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I think we, humans, fail to recognize our own responsibility in this relationship with our absolutly Holy Creator- HaShem!

What wondrous love is this, that our utterly pure Elohim would call us up (via His instructions) that we may be saved from the outcome of our sin to live forever here with Yeshua and HaShem when His Kingdom fully comes.

I understand that you believe what you have written and it does have a great deal of traditional support but not much actual Biblical support.
I pray HaShem richly blesses you in your journey.

 

[Shiranui117]

Uzzah seems like a bloke who tried his best, yet all he did was put his hand on the ark... and God struck him down and he died.

I think we often fail to recognise the absolute holiness of God. He is pure, He does not tolerate sin. The ark falling into the dirt would have been better than coming into contact with the sinful hand of a human being. What wondrous love is this, that our holy and utterly pure God would step down into this sinful world and die for sinners, nailing our debt to the cross so that we may be saved from His holy and righteous wrath and live with Him in eternity, freed from our bondage to sin.

Which do we need saved from--God, or our own sins? Why would we need to be saved from the Author of Life Who always desires our salvation and healing, Who always loves us and reproves us?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Which do we need saved from--God, or our own sins? Why would we need to be saved from the Author of Life Who always desires our salvation and healing, Who always loves us and reproves us?

Both.

Hebrews 10:31 - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

This verse is the clearest really, that we are saved from God's wrath. Romans 5:9 - "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."