Do we really need to be Forgiven????

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Well, I would say that's a pretty good start, alright. Because to actually achieve this state, one would have to do some significant forgiving, don't you think?

Maybe we have different ideas regarding what forgiveness is.

So you don't really forgive, unless it's in your best interest to do so (and even then your just engaging in deliberate denial, not forgiveness), and you don't retaliate, because that's not in your best interest. Which I assume means that you have to just sit in a state of condemnation, indefinitely, because you haven't let the offense go, and you couldn't do anything about it. Unless, I guess, circumstances allow that retaliation would be in your best interest. Then you would do so. Because the controlling principal here, by your own admission, seems to always be what's in your own best interest. Right?But don't you think that's probably why the "offender" screwed you in the first place? That he/she was just doing what they thought was in their own best interest?

You're pretty far from my position. You apparently didn't understand my explanation.

I don't believe that either of these can be achieved without some measure of forgiveness. And because, if there is no forgiveness, in the end, we will choke on the accumulation of anger, paranoia, and resentment.

Sorry, but that is completely irrelevant to me. I don't recognize myself in that at all. I'm a happy guy.

 

[Bird123]

You don't get the scriptural use of 'perfection.' When perfect, a human being never dies unless deprived of sustenance, food and water.

What then is causing our difference in view in one part is what is accepted as authority on these issues. I accept the Bible's word as my authority, you seem to accept your own thoughts and ideas. But, each to his own.

As I see it, Truth has no authority. Real truth is only that which exists. Does the Bible describe what exists? I do not see it as doing so. Everything about Truth and God must add up. Does your Bible really add up completely and in it's entirety? If you say yes, I don't think you question it.

 

[PureX]

Maybe we have different ideas regarding what forgiveness is.

Probably. I think of forgiveness as setting aside condemnation and vengeance, regardless of guilt.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

we can use the absolute ideal of unconditional love to help us define what love should be

I don't recall either you or @Bird123 making the case for unconditional love. You both seem to assume that it is a better choice than being selective about one's love. There are certainly people that I would prefer were gone from the planet, such as the white supremacists in the news lately. I would prefer that they be rehabilitated rather than jettisoned into space, but that's not going to happen. I have no love for such people

I think of forgiveness as setting aside condemnation and vengeance, regardless of guilt.

I think of forgiveness as not exacting vengeance following a betrayal or attack. If I still want the person in my life, as with my sister, who owes me an apology that I never got and never will, the subject simply never comes up, and I treat her as if nothing had ever happened, although as you can tell, I have never forgotten, but will never give her a chance to repeat her sin. I learned from a mistake, and forgetting the past sets me up to make it again.

But with most such people, I am happy to never see them again.

Case in point described in the following spoiler (I hope you'll indulge me by reading and evaluating a few paragraphs):

Spoiler: case in point

About eight years ago, my wife and I made friends with a couple who had also just recently expatriated to the same country we had, and became friends. In a short time, we began adding other people to our group. This group of about ten met every Saturday for backyard potluck parties.

After about three years of this, one member began spreading slanderous lies about me to all of the others except my wife, a lie that suggested that I had committed a crime. I don't know why.

About three months later, he tried to break up my marriage by presenting the story to her. Eventually, I was able to demonstrate to her that the story was a lie.

What is my duty regarding loving or forgiving that man? I say that I have none. Those that claim that this is harboring unhealthy anger are guessing, and guessing incorrectly. I have no emotional response to any of this any more, only a noeitc one - I understand him to be seriously flawed. What was once hatred is now just indifference. Why should I change any of that if I could? Why would I want to?

Incidentally, all of the people in that group are now also out of my life except when we cross paths at a party or restaurant, at which point I smile, say hello, and don't bring up the past. Before long, they came to see that they were lied to by a charismatic liar and manipulator of people, and that they had accepted the lies for months without ever letting me know what was going on behind my back, why they accepted the claims without coming to me for an explanation, or why they were willing to conceal their feel their feelings about me until the perp could stage his gotcha moment with my wife.

Now, they're all contrite and sheepish, knowing that they wronged us both, but although most have acknowledged that they were lied to and no longer believe any of what they were told, not one has had the courage to explain why they never came to me to let me know what was being said or to try to confirm its accuracy, why they believed what was said, or admitted that they wronged us.

I say that that is all such people can realistically hope for. That is all of the love and forgiveness that they are entitled to. Feeling or behaving any other way wouldn't serve me or my wife in the least. Au contraire. Taking a moral position against such inadequate character and behaving as if such treachery is unacceptable seem like the right thing to do, especially for my wife. I would expect her to respect me less if I didn't treat this entire matter as reprehensible and unacceptable.

You probably don't consider that forgiveness, and you would probably be right if you did. Neither do I love any of these people, conditionally or unconditionally. I also feel no emotion for any of this at this time, although the even was disorienting and painful to me at the time.

So my question to you (and Bird 123 or whoever else is interested in commenting) is, do you think I handled that well, or do you think that I should / should have felt or behaved differently?

If the latter, why?

 

[PureX]

I don't recall either you or @Bird123 making the case for unconditional love. You both seem to assume that it is a better choice than being selective about one's love. There are certainly people that I would prefer were gone from the planet, such as the white supremacists in the news lately. I would prefer that they be rehabilitated rather than jettisoned into space, but that's not going to happen. I have no love for such people



I think of forgiveness as not exacting vengeance following a betrayal or attack. If I still want the person in my life, as with my sister, who owes me an apology that I never got and never will, the subject simply never comes up, and I treat her as if nothing had ever happened, although as you can tell, I have never forgotten, but will never give her a chance to repeat her sin. I learned from a mistake, and forgetting the past sets me up to make it again.

But with most such people, I am happy to never see them again.

Case in point described in the following spoiler (I hope you'll indulge me by reading and evaluating a few paragraphs):

Spoiler: case in point

About eight years ago, my wife and I made friends with a couple who had also just recently expatriated to the same country we had, and became friends. In a short time, we began adding other people to our group. This group of about ten met every Saturday for backyard potluck parties.

After about three years of this, one member began spreading slanderous lies about me to all of the others except my wife, a lie that suggested that I had committed a crime. I don't know why.

About three months later, he tried to break up my marriage by presenting the story to her. Eventually, I was able to demonstrate to her that the story was a lie.

What is my duty regarding loving or forgiving that man? I say that I have none. Those that claim that this is harboring unhealthy anger are guessing, and guessing incorrectly. I have no emotional response to any of this any more, only a noeitc one - I understand him to be seriously flawed. What was once hatred is now just indifference. Why should I change any of that if I could? Why would I want to?

Incidentally, all of the people in that group are now also out of my life except when we cross paths at a party or restaurant, at which point I smile, say hello, and don't bring up the past. Before long, they came to see that they were lied to by a charismatic liar and manipulator of people, and that they had accepted the lies for months without ever letting me know what was going on behind my back, why they accepted the claims without coming to me for an explanation, or why they were willing to conceal their feel their feelings about me until the perp could stage his gotcha moment with my wife.

Now, they're all contrite and sheepish, knowing that they wronged us both, but although most have acknowledged that they were lied to and no longer believe any of what they were told, not one has had the courage to explain why they never came to me to let me know what was being said or to try to confirm its accuracy, why they believed what was said, or admitted that they wronged us.

I say that that is all such people can realistically hope for. That is all of the love and forgiveness that they are entitled to. Feeling or behaving any other way wouldn't serve me or my wife in the least. Au contraire. Taking a moral position against such inadequate character and behaving as if such treachery is unacceptable seem like the right thing to do, especially for my wife. I would expect her to respect me less if I didn't treat this entire matter as reprehensible and unacceptable.

You probably don't consider that forgiveness, and you would probably be right if you did. Neither do I love any of these people, conditionally or unconditionally. I also feel no emotion for any of this at this time, although the even was disorienting and painful to me at the time.

So my question to you (and Bird 123 or whoever else is interested in commenting) is, do you think I handled that well, or do you think that I should / should have felt or behaved differently?

If the latter, why?

Some I would agree with, and some not.

I do believe it's important to confront such offensive/abusive behavior as soon as possible. First, in private, and then if it persists, on the spot and in public. Most people who want to offends and abuse others will scuttle away and look for some other hapless victim the moment they see that you can see them for what they are, and are willing to call them out. I would feel I'm actually helping them by forcing them to face their sickness, because it will only fester, while in hiding.

I also agree that it's important to remove oneself from the negative effect of such a person, but not just as a matter of self-protection, but as a way of rendering their abuse, impotent. And once I have removed myself from their influence, like you, I would simply "stand down" and be done with it.

As to how I would feel about them, I would consider them broken human beings. Defective, and damaged, probably, in ways that I am unaware of. And that's neither my fault nor my responsibility to try and correct (unless, perhaps, I was being asked to help them, directly, along with their sincere expression of contrition).

"Forgiveness", then, is not holding their behavior against them. Hopefully, in advance of it's even happening. That is understanding that we are all "broken" in some way or other, and that we all have and will behave in ways that offend and do damage to others. (I realize that the matter of degree and frequency varies widely.) So that in my mind, to forgive others their flaws and faults and the damage these cause others, is to be forgiven for the same flaws and faults and their effects, in myself. And that includes not just the primary offender, but those 'friends' who believed his lies without even asking you about them.

Ideally (and I feel very uncomfortable second-guessing you, here) if you had confronted the guy strait away, and in front of the others, you could theoretically have nipped his insanity is the bud before he had a chance to do much damage, And he would likely have made himself scarce soon afterward. Also preventing the others from making blind assumptions.

 

[Bird123]

I don't recall either you or @Bird123 making the case for unconditional love. You both seem to assume that it is a better choice than being selective about one's love. There are certainly people that I would prefer were gone from the planet, such as the white supremacists in the news lately. I would prefer that they be rehabilitated rather than jettisoned into space, but that's not going to happen. I have no love for such people



I think of forgiveness as not exacting vengeance following a betrayal or attack. If I still want the person in my life, as with my sister, who owes me an apology that I never got and never will, the subject simply never comes up, and I treat her as if nothing had ever happened, although as you can tell, I have never forgotten, but will never give her a chance to repeat her sin. I learned from a mistake, and forgetting the past sets me up to make it again.

But with most such people, I am happy to never see them again.

Case in point described in the following spoiler (I hope you'll indulge me by reading and evaluating a few paragraphs):

Spoiler: case in point

About eight years ago, my wife and I made friends with a couple who had also just recently expatriated to the same country we had, and became friends. In a short time, we began adding other people to our group. This group of about ten met every Saturday for backyard potluck parties.

After about three years of this, one member began spreading slanderous lies about me to all of the others except my wife, a lie that suggested that I had committed a crime. I don't know why.

About three months later, he tried to break up my marriage by presenting the story to her. Eventually, I was able to demonstrate to her that the story was a lie.

What is my duty regarding loving or forgiving that man? I say that I have none. Those that claim that this is harboring unhealthy anger are guessing, and guessing incorrectly. I have no emotional response to any of this any more, only a noeitc one - I understand him to be seriously flawed. What was once hatred is now just indifference. Why should I change any of that if I could? Why would I want to?

Incidentally, all of the people in that group are now also out of my life except when we cross paths at a party or restaurant, at which point I smile, say hello, and don't bring up the past. Before long, they came to see that they were lied to by a charismatic liar and manipulator of people, and that they had accepted the lies for months without ever letting me know what was going on behind my back, why they accepted the claims without coming to me for an explanation, or why they were willing to conceal their feel their feelings about me until the perp could stage his gotcha moment with my wife.

Now, they're all contrite and sheepish, knowing that they wronged us both, but although most have acknowledged that they were lied to and no longer believe any of what they were told, not one has had the courage to explain why they never came to me to let me know what was being said or to try to confirm its accuracy, why they believed what was said, or admitted that they wronged us.

I say that that is all such people can realistically hope for. That is all of the love and forgiveness that they are entitled to. Feeling or behaving any other way wouldn't serve me or my wife in the least. Au contraire. Taking a moral position against such inadequate character and behaving as if such treachery is unacceptable seem like the right thing to do, especially for my wife. I would expect her to respect me less if I didn't treat this entire matter as reprehensible and unacceptable.

You probably don't consider that forgiveness, and you would probably be right if you did. Neither do I love any of these people, conditionally or unconditionally. I also feel no emotion for any of this at this time, although the even was disorienting and painful to me at the time.

So my question to you (and Bird 123 or whoever else is interested in commenting) is, do you think I handled that well, or do you think that I should / should have felt or behaved differently?

If the latter, why?

Communication is key in any relationship. If you hide or run from the problem, as with your sister, how can you ever hope to Solve the real problem??

So many times people avoid Drama, this is a mistake. Why? Most of the learning comes around the Drama. Are we really wanting to avoid learning and growing? I don't.

The people in my life know exactly where I stand. If I had your sister, everything would be out on the table. All sides would be heard. All avenues explored until there was nothing left but Understanding. Yes, she would get my Unconditional Love. My actions would be what is best for her rather than myself. If you do all this, there might be some major Drama, however peace, love and understanding along with a much healthier relationship will be the result of resolution.

If something is wrong, do you love her enough to fix her or will you wallow in those petty lower levels of wanting Blame, Punishment, Control, Revenge, Hate, and Demanding an apology?

It doesn't matter what anyone else does, that includes your sister. It's what You choose to do that counts!!

Your case in point. There are always those who spread lies and slander. What I would have done in your case was when I first heard the slander, I would have asked about what was said at the next party so the Real Truth would get out. When I hear talk of me from others, I go straight to the horse's mouth. I bring it all out in the open. Truth does not Hide.

Once again, Solve the problem. You know that around work and friends, I find few who want to spread lies about me. Hmmm? I think they know I will bring the Truth out.

Once again, it doesn't matter what everyone else does, it's what you choose to do that counts!!!

 

[soulsurvivor]

A Religious friend recited what his religion was teaching him. He said Sin is bad. He said we are all Sinners. Finally, He said we all need to be forgiven by God for our Sins.



OK. Let's think about this for a while. God creates us. God is supposed to be Perfect. How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners? Further, since the flaw is God's mistake, why does one need God to forgive us?



Perhaps Religion has it all wrong. Let's assume God is smart enough not to make any mistakes. With that in mind, could Sin be a Good thing?



As I see it, God has not made a mistake. Mankind simply does not Understand what is actually going on. People assume God created us then we screwed it all up. In reality, God is not through creating each of us to our true Perfection. We are living the creation process toward perfection.



Ego gets in the way of so much learning yet Ego is an important part sentience. Since each are individuals with Ego, you can not just tell someone how they should act and expect everyone to follow. Funny how so many Religions think everyone should follow.



In order for one to make perfect choices, one must fully Understand all sides. How can one understand all sides if the choices are limited to one side? It won't happen. With the Ego involved, the choices must be Free Choices. If your choices are not free choices, won't you make the opposite choice as soon as you do get a free choice just to discover what you could not have?



This brings us to Reality as I see it on the road to our perfection. Sin is a necessity for learning. We are living in a multilevel classroom free to choose what we do not understand. In this time-based causal universe we learn through our parameters, those we interact with and the results of our choices. God simply has to return our actions and choices back to us so that we might understand what our choices really mean. In time, through many lifetimes, we Choose our way to perfection. When one truly understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choice.



In a multilevel classroom, students are learning many different things. Often we see others learning lessons we have already learned. Does one Hate, value Blame, want to Condemn and Punish, want revenge and pay back,or value others as a lower life form when we see this? Those are hard lesson one can choose for themselves regardless of how appetizing it can be served up from those who present them as an image of goodness. As I see it, the only Real choice is to recognize we are all on the journey to perfection and what matters most is that no one misses the opportunity to Learn. Each can be a Part of the Real Solution. Point them in the right direction.



As I see it, we are all being taught to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. It can not be an easy thing for God either especially when what sometimes can be the best thing is a hard painful lesson. Still, won't the Results be Glorious at the end of the long road?



Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.



What do you think?

Actually, you are quite right. There is no need to be forgiven by God. God has set up the system of karma, so that all wrong doing is automatically handled. So no sin goes unpunished and no good deed goes unrewarded - it is just a matter of of time before you pay for all your actions. Forgiveness or even mercy does not even come into the picture.

 

[osgart]

hell is the love evil people need. the hate that cares!

sinners to me are forgiveable, evil is far worse than sin.

and when the evil people get back from eternal hell, if ever, they will be changed into life people.

that's the way I love that. 123

 

[LukeS]

Maybe Gods forgiveness saves us from asking other people for forgiveness, and we get the psychological benefits without being treated badly.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Communication is key in any relationship. If you hide or run from the problem, as with your sister, how can you ever hope to Solve the real problem??

So many times people avoid Drama, this is a mistake. Why? Most of the learning comes around the Drama. Are we really wanting to avoid learning and growing? I don't.

The people in my life know exactly where I stand. If I had your sister, everything would be out on the table. All sides would be heard. All avenues explored until there was nothing left but Understanding. Yes, she would get my Unconditional Love. My actions would be what is best for her rather than myself. If you do all this, there might be some major Drama, however peace, love and understanding along with a much healthier relationship will be the result of resolution.

If something is wrong, do you love her enough to fix her or will you wallow in those petty lower levels of wanting Blame, Punishment, Control, Revenge, Hate, and Demanding an apology?

It doesn't matter what anyone else does, that includes your sister. It's what You choose to do that counts!!

Your case in point. There are always those who spread lies and slander. What I would have done in your case was when I first heard the slander, I would have asked about what was said at the next party so the Real Truth would get out. When I hear talk of me from others, I go straight to the horse's mouth. I bring it all out in the open. Truth does not Hide.

Once again, Solve the problem. You know that around work and friends, I find few who want to spread lies about me. Hmmm? I think they know I will bring the Truth out.

Once again, it doesn't matter what everyone else does, it's what you choose to do that counts!!!

Thanks for your interest, but perhaps you misunderstood my purpose in posting that material. I was quite satisfied with how I handled both the matter of my sister and of the Saturday group. I was illustrating the difference between how I would handle treachery from somebody that I love contrasted with the same situation with people that I had no reason to maintain any future relationship.

You wrote, "If something is wrong, do you love her enough to fix [your sister] or will you wallow in those petty lower levels of wanting Blame, Punishment, Control, Revenge, Hate, and Demanding an apology?" Where did that come from? There was none of that in the story of my sister. I offered that story as an example of choosing to pretend that nothing had happened because as my sister, I had an interest in resolving our differences, and chose to do so nonconfrontationally and without any lingering resentment or need to revisit the matter.

Regarding the Saturday crowd, there was no next party for me once the trap had been sprung. As you could imagine, I was persona non grata, I attempted to communicate with many members of the group by email, and was attacked in the emails. That story was offered as a counterpoint to the forgiveness story involving somebody that I love.

This story doesn't involve forgiveness, and certainly nothing resembling unconditional love. As I have said many times, the idea of loving enemies is foreign to me and seems pointless and even dangerous. These party people are people that turned on me on the unverified word of a manipulative and malicious man. Any of that group could have found forgiveness with me had they expressed contrition. I needed an explanation, an expression of regret, and an apology for that to happen, something that was not forthcoming from any of them.

I could see the regret in their eyes and hear it in the prosody of their voices, but they were too cowardly to do the right thing, and I chose to forgive none of them, and to eliminate them from my life. I believe that that was the right thing to do in such a case, and offered that approach as an alternative to what I consider wrong-headed advice to love all unconditionally and forgive on demand. It's enough that there was no law suit for defamation against the principle perp, nor any attempt to retaliate against any of the people in his sway. I just walked away, and experience no emotion when reliving these events in memory. Those people are all like ghosts to me now.

I would handle both matters exactly the same if similar situations were ever to arise again. Both situations were resolved as optimally as possible.

I guess my point is that I agree with you and Bird123 that harboring ill feelings and seeking revenge are harmful, but not the idea that forgiveness is always correct or owed, and certainly not that love is unconditional or that one should love enemies.

You suggested trying to work it out with the Saturday crowd, but why? These are not the kind of people I want in my social circle. Recall that it was the first people we got to know socially after expatriating to another country. Eight years later, we have a lot of good relationships with people of character - people with a better understanding of what it means to be a friend.

Once again, thanks for your interest. I was offering an alternative to universal forgiveness and unconditional love. One can lose my affection and concern. I'm pretty sure that's true with just about all of us, and I challenge the idea that giving such people more than I did is a virtue.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Maybe Gods forgiveness saves us from asking other people for forgiveness, and we get the psychological benefits without being treated badly.

That sounds like a poor ethic to me. Only he that you harmed can forgive you, and a system that facilitates cheap and easy forgiveness on demand without apology or admission of guilt to the injured party seems like a move in the wrong direction.

What you are calling being treated badly is what I call being held accountable by your actions. If you have harmed another, your apology will either be accepted or rejected. Is that so hard to take?

Do you think that he who refuses to apologize deserves the psychological benefit of forgiveness if he doesn't have the moral fortitude to make it right with his victim? I think that such a person should live with a degree of guilt, shame, and remorse.

 

[Bird123]

Actually, you are quite right. There is no need to be forgiven by God. God has set up the system of karma, so that all wrong doing is automatically handled. So no sin goes unpunished and no good deed goes unrewarded - it is just a matter of of time before you pay for all your actions. Forgiveness or even mercy does not even come into the picture.

I do not see it as punishment. Isn't it more like education? When our actions and choices return, one learns the other side of those choices. Isn't it best to learn and know what our choices mean? I see no malice, hate, revenge, payback, or punishment involved. We are Living those Lessons. Further, like you said, in time, one learns what the best choices are. In time, Intelligence will make the best choices. In time, we learn to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return.

Yes, you are right. It is truly a fair system.

 

[Bird123]

Thanks for your interest, but perhaps you misunderstood my purpose in posting that material. I was quite satisfied with how I handled both the matter of my sister and of the Saturday group. I was illustrating the difference between how I would handle treachery from somebody that I love contrasted with the same situation with people that I had no reason to maintain any future relationship.

You wrote, "If something is wrong, do you love her enough to fix [your sister] or will you wallow in those petty lower levels of wanting Blame, Punishment, Control, Revenge, Hate, and Demanding an apology?" Where did that come from? There was none of that in the story of my sister. I offered that story as an example of choosing to pretend that nothing had happened because as my sister, I had an interest in resolving our differences, and chose to do so nonconfrontationally and without any lingering resentment or need to revisit the matter.

Regarding the Saturday crowd, there was no next party for me once the trap had been sprung. As you could imagine, I was persona non grata, I attempted to communicate with many members of the group by email, and was attacked in the emails. That story was offered as a counterpoint to the forgiveness story involving somebody that I love.

This story doesn't involve forgiveness, and certainly nothing resembling unconditional love. As I have said many times, the idea of loving enemies is foreign to me and seems pointless and even dangerous. These party people are people that turned on me on the unverified word of a manipulative and malicious man. Any of that group could have found forgiveness with me had they expressed contrition. I needed an explanation, an expression of regret, and an apology for that to happen, something that was not forthcoming from any of them.

I could see the regret in their eyes and hear it in the prosody of their voices, but they were too cowardly to do the right thing, and I chose to forgive none of them, and to eliminate them from my life. I believe that that was the right thing to do in such a case, and offered that approach as an alternative to what I consider wrong-headed advice to love all unconditionally and forgive on demand. It's enough that there was no law suit for defamation against the principle perp, nor any attempt to retaliate against any of the people in his sway. I just walked away, and experience no emotion when reliving these events in memory. Those people are all like ghosts to me now.

I would handle both matters exactly the same if similar situations were ever to arise again. Both situations were resolved as optimally as possible.

I guess my point is that I agree with you and Bird123 that harboring ill feelings and seeking revenge are harmful, but not the idea that forgiveness is always correct or owed, and certainly not that love is unconditional or that one should love enemies.

You suggested trying to work it out with the Saturday crowd, but why? These are not the kind of people I want in my social circle. Recall that it was the first people we got to know socially after expatriating to another country. Eight years later, we have a lot of good relationships with people of character - people with a better understanding of what it means to be a friend.

Once again, thanks for your interest. I was offering an alternative to universal forgiveness and unconditional love. One can lose my affection and concern. I'm pretty sure that's true with just about all of us, and I challenge the idea that giving such people more than I did is a virtue.

Perhaps you missed the opportunity to fix the problem, maybe fix these people. When one is hurt, often one wants to hurt back. Were you trying to payback the hurt by saying: you are not my friends anymore? You then place conditions: Until you say I'm sorry? They didn't. You are gone.

I do not think you have totally let the hate and hurt go. I think it influences your actions and choices even today. Perhaps a different choice in your past would have helped you more regardless of whether you kept in touch with these people.

Oh yes, when dealing with people, you are dealing with Ego and Pride. Sometimes one must allow the other person to save face. Is this allowing them to win? It allows the communications to stay open so you can make a difference or maybe fix those involved.

What is in it for you? You might just be surprised. One day, you might need fixing and a kind soul will be willing to take the effort to point you in the right direction.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Perhaps you missed the opportunity to fix the problem, maybe fix these people. When one is hurt, often one wants to hurt back. Were you trying to payback the hurt by saying: you are not my friends anymore? You then place conditions: Until you say I'm sorry? They didn't. You are gone.

I do not think you have totally let the hate and hurt go. I think it influences your actions and choices even today. Perhaps a different choice in your past would have helped you more regardless of whether you kept in touch with these people.

Oh yes, when dealing with people, you are dealing with Ego and Pride. Sometimes one must allow the other person to save face. Is this allowing them to win? It allows the communications to stay open so you can make a difference or maybe fix those involved.

What is in it for you? You might just be surprised. One day, you might need fixing and a kind soul will be willing to take the effort to point you in the right direction.

Of course I'm gone. I was in the company of people with serious character issues, people that I was no longer willing to spend time with. Why would I want to fix anything except my own situation, which I did by parting ways and exploring other possible friendships?

Yes, I have minimum requirements for who can be a part of my life. Betraying me, then not expressing contrition or offering an apology is a good reason to break ties with such people. There is nothing to fix there, and trying to help them was not on my list of things to do. Why would it be?

I offered the stories as anecdotes illustrating the way I see forgiveness and unconditional love so that those of you who think I should have done otherwise can say what that would be and why - to tell me why you think that you have a better idea how to handle such things the way I did, and what makes it better. Neither of you did that. You both merely second guessed what I was "really" feeling despite my having told you otherwise, and then gave me advice I didn't request or need.

I'm not really asking for anybody here to analyze my, tell me what they think my true feelings were, or offer me advice on how to handle these problems. As I indicated, I am quite satisfied with how I handled both situations, and quite content with the outcome in each case: My sister is still a part of my life with no residual issue regarding the pat, and the Saturday crowd is gone from it. That's exactly how things should be.

What I was looking for is your reasons for handling either of those matters differently. You spoke about what sounded like universal forgiveness and unconditional love. What could be better than resolving matters with my sister with no ill will, and clearing some of the clutter and chaos from my social life?

 

[Bird123]

Of course I'm gone. I was in the company of people with serious character issues, people that I was no longer willing to spend time with. Why would I want to fix anything except my own situation, which I did by parting ways and exploring other possible friendships?

Yes, I have minimum requirements for who can be a part of my life. Betraying me, then not expressing contrition or offering an apology is a good reason to break ties with such people. There is nothing to fix there, and trying to help them was not on my list of things to do. Why would it be?

I offered the stories as anecdotes illustrating the way I see forgiveness and unconditional love so that those of you who think I should have done otherwise can say what that would be and why - to tell me why you think that you have a better idea how to handle such things the way I did, and what makes it better. Neither of you did that. You both merely second guessed what I was "really" feeling despite my having told you otherwise, and then gave me advice I didn't request or need.

I'm not really asking for anybody here to analyze my, tell me what they think my true feelings were, or offer me advice on how to handle these problems. As I indicated, I am quite satisfied with how I handled both situations, and quite content with the outcome in each case: My sister is still a part of my life with no residual issue regarding the pat, and the Saturday crowd is gone from it. That's exactly how things should be.

What I was looking for is your reasons for handling either of those matters differently. You spoke about what sounded like universal forgiveness and unconditional love. What could be better than resolving matters with my sister with no ill will, and clearing some of the clutter and chaos from my social life?

I know you do not see the better outcome that you could have created. Perhaps, in time, that option will become more viable once you discover it to be not only the best but the quickest way to resolution. I see you getting there in time. I think you just have more dancing to do before you do. You have my best.