Do You Agree?

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Which deity is this? What objective evidence can you demonstrate that it exists?

It's about what actually is. God nor any of us have or need names. We are all who we are. Names are created by mankind so language can have a frame of reference. As a Spiritual being, names and language serve no purpose.

So your deity has no name? What objective evidence can you demonstrate this deity exists?

It's your claim and belief, it is for you to support it.

 

[Sheldon]

To them, it's just a clump of meaningless cells that can be discarded anytime.

Who is "them" and can you quote "them" claiming anything is meaningless, only this straw man fallacy seems to be your claim, and not anyone else's. Also why should you, or anyone else get to tell others what to do with their own bodies?

 

[YoursTrue]

Is it? Why?

If you don't think he is responsible for impregnating the woman oh well. He's free off the hook I suppose some might think, especially if she decides she doesn't want it, no child support.

 

[nPeace]

@YoursTrue To them, it's not just a clump of meaningless cells that can be discarded anytime.
To them, it's just a clump of dead / lifeless cells that can be discarded anytime.
Dead / lifeless meaningful cells that can be discarded anytime.

Dead ... lifeless ... meaningful cells ... that can be discarded anytime.

 

[YoursTrue]

Who is "them" and can you quote "them" claiming anything is meaningless, only this straw man fallacy seems to be your claim, and not anyone else's. Also why should you, or anyone else get to tell others what to do with their own bodies?

I don't think he is telling anyone what to do, although you probably think it's ok to drop a bomb in defense of your country on pregnant women and children. If that is what is required as defense. So it's ok by you to abort a living fetus for any reason whatsoever if I I understand you correctly. And yes, it is a personal decision. But as a man, if you impregnate a woman, what responsibility do you think a man might have towards the life of the unborn or the woman he impregnated?

 

[YoursTrue]

@YoursTrue To them, it's not just a clump of meaningless cells that can be discarded anytime.
To them, it's just a clump of dead / lifeless cells that can be discarded anytime.
Dead / lifeless meaningful cells that can be discarded anytime.

Dead ... lifeless ... meaningful cells ... that can be discarded anytime.

At this point in my life, I see life differently than I did when I was younger and not believing in God.

 

[nPeace]

At this point in my life, I see life differently than I did when I was younger and not believing in God.

I think what we are taught affects how we think, and we are taught by one or the other.

 

[joelr]

I'm not sure where you got that from, but I suggest you put it in the category it belongs - fake news.


So they knew he was hiding in the closet before they entered the classroom, or after.... or did they have Superman's powers - X-Ray Vision?


I would want the police to be safe. After all, they are human too, with families. Some have small children.
Why would I be selfish, and think only of me, and what belongs to me?

A lot of heros, lie in the dirt today. Some of them aren't even remembered.
If the police can safely rescue my child, that's appreciated. It's not their fault, my child is in a classroom with a blood-thirsty animal.

What if the murderer had shot everyone in the room, and then blew his brains out, would I be crying, saying... "Oh. The police should have?" Or would I be complaining about guns?
Like most people do, I might find something else to complain about, and blame.


There is a better video, on this page, to see the timeline.

These cops went after the gunman, and engaged him.
They were fired upon, and retreated to safety.

20 minutes later,, heavily armed officers arrive with shields.

They waited 45 minutes max.
Why?
According to body camera video, officers spent the next 46 minutes amassing additional protection, including a fourth ballistic shield and tear gas canisters. They discussed various ways to enter the classroom, including using outside windows, to kill the gunman.

Paramedics even begin treating the wounded.
So, getting protective gear, and working out an effective strategy for a successful "hit", is foolish, in your opinion?


Ah. Thank you for this video. Very information.

So they had shields, but those shields were useless right? They might as well have laid them aside and gone in right?
US marshals provided one - the only shield that could offer them protection against any return fire from the gunman.
Which means, the waiting was cut down to 30 minutes from 45 minutes, if one considers the cops were not equipped to take on the gunman, in a shootout, in an enclosed area.

If that isn't something you can see in mind, take a look at this.

Notice, the officers could not get a clear shot, especially with the gunman returning fire.

During the 30 minute wait, I don't know if they were trying to get another shield, or what. I do not have all the facts.
Edit @joelr perhaps that was the time They discussed various ways to enter the classroom, including using outside windows, to kill the gunman.

However, I think when judging a matter, it's important to take all factors into consideration.

However, they went in, once they had, at least one "rifle rated shield" - some form of protection, from possibly leaving that school in a body bag. Or ending up on a stretcher, bleeding out.

From what I know, and have seen, police too, fear for their life. They are human. Not machines.
Police Officers Fear More For Their Safety, Pew Survey Finds
Eighty-six percent of American police officers say their job is getting harder since the high-profile incidents involving police and African-Americans and the protests that have followed. That statistic comes from a national survey of police officers that was just released by the Pew Research Center.

Perhaps the US will take some of the money they are spending in arms, and get robots which they can control like a drone, and use in situations like this. AI may not be necessary with the technology they already have.

This highlights though, indeed, the worsening conditions in the world, and the changing attitudes foretold to be here.

I like the fact that your video mentioned some leading and contributing factors, and the most pertinent factor of all of them - failed government.
He is right.
We need good government. I only know of one.


So you think its okay if some "kids" dad took a bullet... to the head, or heart, and died? No problem right? At least he tried?


Without protection against an AR rifle's bullet, I think any officer would be scare.
All cops are scared when they even suspect the person they confront, may possess a gun.
After all, this is not some video game they are in, where they can get unlimited lives, you know.


It's go time, from the time you arm yourself and threaten anyone.


In the video I linked, the cop took out the hostage taker, before he killed anyone.


There is no guarantee those children being transported to hospital would have survived. You know this right.
The trauma left... even if they survived, may have been worst than death.
With their injuries, maybe it's better, they are at rest.

The report, which you admitted is good information, says the police failed to respond properly. They took 30 min after the rated shied arrived. Yes, men with pistols should go in the room and save the children.
The report states there was a serious lack of communication and chain of command and overall was bad enough to suspend the chief. The report says the police were afraid of the AR47 rifle.
Some children and a teacher died in the ambulance, 77 minutes or more later. They may have been saved. And yes, in this situation the police are the people who go in. Men with tactical rifles were there. They are trained for single line entry and understand how to disperse and get a shot. They have ways to distract the gunman for a moment while they enter.

This was that time drastic measures needed to be taken. The police are the people who signed up to be police, not the children. If an officer who was a dad or mother died then their children would be proud of what was done.

They can rest in peace, until they awake in a new world, where things like these will never exist, and "the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart." (Isaiah 65:17)

Right and a Muslim will quote the Quran, a Hindu will quote Lord Krishna, but none of it looks to have any truth. Before the Greeks, and Persians brought heaven to all the religions the Romans had a different saying for death:
Non Fui, Fui, Non Sum, Non Curo

N.F.F.N.S.N.C.

I was not, I was, I am not, I care not.

 

[joelr]

Maybe that's what made it easy for the cops, and why none were injured.
He might have went into the closet after the demons left him, and he realized what a horrible thing he had done... like Judas.
(Matthew 27:3-5) 3 Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, felt remorse and brought the 30 pieces of silver back to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying: “I sinned when I betrayed innocent blood.” They said: “What is that to us? You must see to it!” 5 So he threw the silver pieces into the temple and departed. Then he went off and hanged himself.

No one knew he was in the closet though.
He wasn't in the closet when he fired on the cops.

Demons are mythological creatures from legends. Why are you quoting ancient fiction and saying "hey this happened in fiction so look maybe it happened here too?"
Matthew is a creative re-write of Mark.

No cops were injured. Kids and teachers were killed. The cops were standing around for over 1 hour.

She wouldn't have cared if she had ran into the room the gunman was in either. She would have been too dead to care.

Why are you not quoting some passage about how she would be in some afterlife with this one? According to you if you are dead you are all happy? Anyways, she would also inspire billions of people to fight as hard as you can in terrible situations.

 

[joelr]

What if? I don't know about guns. But what if the shooter had an automatic something that fired lots of rounds and when the police entered he managed to shoot every one of them plus more kids? how terrible the whole thing is and that's not the only horrible situation with mankind today.

They had 300 police. They must have had flash bangs? More information will come out. Kids were calling on their phones so I seems he went in the closet early on. 2 cops with pistols probably could have gotten him.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because I think it would tell a lot about why it happened. But, as said before, it is not the only issue, the other significant matter is who gave the orders for the police to basically protect the shooter and the massacre.

Are you suggesting he got the money from the "government? "
Are you suggesting that the "government" ordered for the police to "basically protect the shooter and the massacre?"

 

[Sheldon]

Interesting that the person who impregnated the woman bears little to no responsibility in the decision to have the fetus killed.

Is it? Why?

If you don't think he is responsible for impregnating the woman oh well. He's free off the hook I suppose some might think, especially if she decides she doesn't want it, no child support.

Well yes, but so what? The question was why do you, think it is interesting that a man bears no responsibility in the decision a woman makes about her own body and whether to terminate the pregnancy? Why would the fact a man got a woman pregnant, grant him any right over what she does with her own body?

 

[Sheldon]

@YoursTrue To them, it's not just a clump of meaningless cells that can be discarded anytime.
To them, it's just a clump of dead / lifeless cells that can be discarded anytime.

I am dubious, can you quote anyone saying a blastocyst is lifeless? Are you really trying to claim a blastocyst or early stage developing foetus is not an insentient clump of cells?

 

[Sheldon]

I don't think he is telling anyone what to do,

It's inherent in the argument, and I was asking a question.

although you probably think it's ok to drop a bomb in defense of your country on pregnant women and children. If that is what is required as defense.

irrelevant trolling. Is that nonsense really the best argument you can muster in defence of opposing a woman's right to bodily autonomy?

So it's ok by you to abort a living fetus for any reason whatsoever if I I understand you correctly.

You don't, I am pro choice, I think it would be immoral to take away a woman's bodily autonomy. Her choice is none of my business, since it is not my body. I believe I have been pretty clear, so your confusion is bizarre.

And yes, it is a personal decision. But as a man, if you impregnate a woman, what responsibility do you think a man might have towards the life of the unborn or the woman he impregnated?

That depends whether she decides to terminate the pregnancy or not, if she does then the man's responsibility has ended, since it is her body and her choice.

 

[nPeace]

The report, which you admitted is good information, says the police failed to respond properly. They took 30 min after the rated shied arrived. Yes, men with pistols should go in the room and save the children.
The report states there was a serious lack of communication and chain of command and overall was bad enough to suspend the chief. The report says the police were afraid of the AR47 rifle.

People have said these things. We know this. What's new.... anything? AR47 or AR-15?

Some children and a teacher died in the ambulance, 77 minutes or more later.

What's your source?

What we know about the Uvalde victims who were hospitalized
Of those 17 [survivors who were injured], six remained hospitalized as of Monday, including one in serious condition, one in fair condition and three in good
condition. The sixth patient‘s condition is unclear.
The Uvalde Memorial Hospital said it treated 15 patients in the aftermath of the shooting — 11 children and four adults — while two additional children that arrived at the hospital were declared dead on arrival.

Seems to me, there is a lot of fake news floating around. Maybe people have an agenda.
With Her Police Officer Husband In Final Moments, Judge Says
Uvalde County judge Bill Mitchell said officials had briefed them about some of the final moments that slain teacher Eva Mireles shared with her husband Ruben Ruiz, a police officer who was outside the school when she died.

Yet, we hear she died in the ambulance.

They may have been saved. And yes, in this situation the police are the people who go in. Men with tactical rifles were there. They are trained for single line entry and understand how to disperse and get a shot. They have ways to distract the gunman for a moment while they enter.

I just watched the unedited video of the whole thing, from start to finish, and I am glad I did, although it left me feeling sick to my stomach - sick to my stomach at those calling for the badge, and blood of those officers.

I sat and watched those men go toward gunfire from an automatic rifle. One officer was ready to take on the gunman, but the guy had no backup from his colleagues. He had no protection but his vest, which couldn't save him from a barrage of bullets from the gunman's rifle.
They definitely were not a tactical team.
He even injured himself moving away as bullets ricocheted off the wall.

I sat and watched officers train their rifles at the door, and I can imagine what could have been going through their mind... "What if a child runs through that door? What if that happens and I pull the trigger? What if I hesitate, and the gunman appears... shooting? What if...
The adrenaline must have gone into overdrive.

I did see them use ways to distract the gunman.
They planned... of course, and stationed men with rifles at the windows, just before the team in the corridors donned their gas masks, armed themselves with canisters, and non-"rifle rated" shields, and moved toward the door... after a volley of shots, which I assume was the distraction from the men at the windows.

If I assumed correctly, that plan failed.
The doors were locked. Someone talked about shooting the door... again, I assume the reason they discarded that idea... They are in a corridor, with a team of officers, and we know what bullets do when they hit metal, or steel.
We know what bullets do, when they hit wood too. Children are inside.

The officers then wait for the keys.
It took about 40 minutes to get the correct key. Was that the cops' fault? You decide.

By that time, the large shield arrived - "rifle rated". I could tell the difference. It was heavy.
When they finally got the right key for the door, they went in. There was a lot of gunfire - more than 20 shots fired.
They got the guy.
I would not say these cops stood around doing nothing.

What was sickening to me too, is to realize that the CNN cast, looking for something to criticize, zeroed in on a cop sanitizing his hands 10 minutes after the tactical team went to the door of the classroom.
What was the man supposed to do... Go up to the door and yell, "Open Sesame"?

They really went overboard in their condemnation.
Which brings me to the other lie circulating in the media.

We hear that police waited around, and failed to stop the massacre.
Yet, when the cops arrived, the massacre was over.

The gunman mowed down the classrooms in just 3 minutes.
The cops arrived just before he fired the last 100 rounds.

One girl said, "...he walked around the class, shooting everyone in sight.
She said the gunman then went to the connected room next door and continued shooting.

This was that time drastic measures needed to be taken. The police are the people who signed up to be police, not the children.

Drastic measure huh. I wonder what those are.

I am glad no cops were hurt, (just a minor injury of the officer who hit his head, or was hit on the head with something) or killed.
I commend their efforts, and understand their fears.
I see the dangers they face, and the measures they take to continue they work.

Ballistic shields: A 'must have' for street patrol
A ballistic shield is not always recognized as a necessity until it is too late and an active shooter situation has occurred
“Departments are calling for ballistic shields because their patrol officers are often the first people that might have to handle an active-shooter situation. They should have something to protect themselves further other than a vest,” Thomas said.

If more police are killed in the line of duty, sooner or later, there would be no policemen, as they would all be either dead, resigned, or not available... and none of the critics, here, or anywhere else will say, "Okay. I'll take on the bad guys."

I'm also glad to hear that of the 15 injured, 12 or 13 will likely live.

If an officer who was a dad or mother died then their children would be proud of what was done.

Speak for yourself.
You cannot speak for the children out there.

Right and a Muslim will quote the Quran, a Hindu will quote Lord Krishna, but none of it looks to have any truth. Before the Greeks, and Persians brought heaven to all the religions the Romans had a different saying for death:
Non Fui, Fui, Non Sum, Non Curo

N.F.F.N.S.N.C.

I was not, I was, I am not, I care not.

Demons are mythological creatures from legends.

How would you know that?
Even people who are blinded mentally, by demons do not even know they are saying what they do not know. So, how would you know?

Why are you quoting ancient fiction and saying "hey this happened in fiction so look maybe it happened here too?"

I quoted no ancient fiction.
Why do you constantly say what you believe as though it is actually factual? Do you imagine yourself as some god sitting outside the realms of the universe?

Matthew is a creative re-write of Mark.

There we go. That's what you believe. It's not true because you believe it.
Knock knock. Any of that registered?

No cops were injured.

Great! I hope you know why.
This cop should know better. Does he think he is on a movie set? He could have been injured, or worst.

Kids and teachers were killed.

About 20 minutes before the cops with shields arrived.

The cops were standing around for over 1 hour.

Didn't look that way to me, but if you consider it 'standing around'....what did you want them to do. I hope you didn't want them to shoot up the place.

Why are you not quoting some passage about how she would be in some afterlife with this one?

The "kids" acted wisely, with thinking ability. They played dead when the gunman started shooting.
They could have charged at the gunman, and said.... "To the rescue. Here I come". .. but they weren't stupid (not saying the woman was stupid, just that her emotional reaction caused her to take action she later realized... hopefully, was stupid).

Even one girl was sensible enough to keep her mouth shut... and she didn't get shot.
She said, "He shot the girl next to me, and she said, ‘I’ve been shot!’ And, I didn’t want to say anything because I didn’t want him to come over and shoot me. So, I stayed quiet. He came back and shot her again because she wouldn’t be quiet."

According to you if you are dead you are all happy?

I didn't say that. You can read, I'm sure? So please read what I said, instead of claiming your ideas came from me.

Anyways, she would also inspire billions of people to fight as hard as you can in terrible situations.

Wow.
I really hope billions of people do not act on emotional responses that override thinking ability.
I hope they go play Lemmings instead, and have the sense to understand, it's just a game.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's inherent in the argument, and I was asking a question.




irrelevant trolling. Is that nonsense really the best argument you can muster in defence of opposing a woman's right to bodily autonomy?



You don't, I am pro choice, I think it would be immoral to take away a woman's bodily autonomy. Her choice is none of my business, since it is not my body. I believe I have been pretty clear, so your confusion is bizarre.



That depends whether she decides to terminate the pregnancy or not, if she does then the man's responsibility has ended, since it is her body and her choice.

OK, no more discussion or argument about it from me. If people want to kill (abort) a fetus, that's up to them.

 

[YoursTrue]

Demons are mythological creatures from legends. Why are you quoting ancient fiction and saying "hey this happened in fiction so look maybe it happened here too?"
Matthew is a creative re-write of Mark.

No cops were injured. Kids and teachers were killed. The cops were standing around for over 1 hour.






Why are you not quoting some passage about how she would be in some afterlife with this one? According to you if you are dead you are all happy? Anyways, she would also inspire billions of people to fight as hard as you can in terrible situations.

The shame is that police officers are being killed by criminals -- they are also being sued and sometimes put in jail when a jury says they didn't do their job right. Are you able to be a cop? Maybe you can protect innocent ones, or are you too old perhaps?

 

[YoursTrue]

It's inherent in the argument, and I was asking a question.




irrelevant trolling. Is that nonsense really the best argument you can muster in defence of opposing a woman's right to bodily autonomy?



You don't, I am pro choice, I think it would be immoral to take away a woman's bodily autonomy. Her choice is none of my business, since it is not my body. I believe I have been pretty clear, so your confusion is bizarre.



That depends whether she decides to terminate the pregnancy or not, if she does then the man's responsibility has ended, since it is her body and her choice.

I did say my discussion with you is more or less over, but you really don't want to figure if dropping a bomb on children and pregnant women is ok or not ok, right? I deem your loyalties and opinions to be skewed, but -- that's the way it is. And because you refuse to comment on that, again -- I believe you're not looking at it with good vision. You can say what you want about abortion and the right to kill a fetus, but interestingly enough refuse to declare guilt or innocence when it comes to killing women, pregnant or not, and children in wartime, hm.?

 

[Bird123]

What knowledge is this, you keep claiming to have it, but failing to present any of it?



Yet you can't objectively evidence them.



nope, that's not my beliefs, see?



Except I require sufficient objective evidence to support them before I accept that are true, and I will discard them the minute sufficient objective evidence .



There is still no objective evidence anything was created.



What things, and what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support this claim?



I no more want any deity not to exist, than I want Hercules or mermaids or unicorns not to exist. Something either exists or it does not, you're claiming a deity does, so present what objective evidence you claim to have. As so far all you have presented is unevidenced subjective claims, that's what I see, as it really is pretty clear.



I am an atheist, so this claim is as bizarre as it is false.

You don't seem to have addressed the factually correct statement, that there is no objective evidence that this world or anything else was "created".

ASSUME ASSUME ASSUME!! You are blind to so very much.


OK, baby steps.
Do I exist? Where is your objective evidence?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Well yes, but so what? The question was why do you, think it is interesting that a man bears no responsibility in the decision a woman makes about her own body and whether to terminate the pregnancy? Why would the fact a man got a woman pregnant, grant him any right over what she does with her own body?

Let me put it to you this way: if a man impregnates a woman and she decides to have an abortion because she doesn't want a child, yes, he is the one that made her pregnant, therefore is responsible for impregnating her. If you don't think that's anything well, ok, that's you. Many men go around impregnating women, some women have abortions, others have their babies and go on support from the government or go to court suing a man who she thinks is the father. Sometimes he is, and sometimes he is not the father. But we're not speaking about child support or fornicating here, are we? No, the subject is about the right of a woman to abort a living fetus. And then of course, she and a man are free to fornicate anyway, no restrictions there ... so it's not up to me, but thanks for your question. I wouldn't want to enact any legislation pro or con about this. So we all have choices.