Do You Agree?

[Fool]

That wasn't my first post, but nevertheless.
The less equipped and less protected officers that tried to get to the shooter who were only 3 minutes behind the shooter, were fired upon.

The trained (I meant trained for this particular situation) and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes

You have to remember, I am viewing the video.
View attachment 64564

So my perspective is not from the school. which puts me 10... or less, minutes behind then.
So okay, they arrive less then 20 minutes after the first response, and attempt.

Their judgment dictated that they need additional protection, tear gas canisters, and a strategy that might work better than the first, and they move toward the door roughly 25 minutes after.... or whatever people think...

You see that as negligence? Okay. Thanks.
I guess some people might also think that a surgeon calling for particular instruments and gear, in a situation that comes up during surgery, is negligent, if that takes a few minutes.
He decided let the patient die, according to their view.

I guess the courts get decide that.
Everyone has their opinion. Doesn't mean they are right, or have taken all the facts into consideration.

I strongly suggest you explain this to children

 

[stvdv]

Police officers shall not discharge their weapons when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons.

In the context of this thread, IMO this is a very important one, because in a school are many innocent persons and here is 1 cold killer. So, police going in there must be very well equipped to handle that situation.

The training Special forces get, is not the same as a patrol officer.

Another crucial observation in the context of this thread, IMO.

I don't know much about US police, not even about the Dutch police. But in movies they show that for specific tasks they have specific well trained experts. And sometimes those who arrive first need to wait for the experts to arrive, in the mean time taking control of the situation. This makes sense to me, and usual there is some truth in movies.

IF the ones arriving first were patrol officers it makes sense to me that they were under equipped to solve this specific situation, and were therefore quite hesitant to act.

This does not make them cowards at all, it makes them thoughtful and responsible

@nPeace thank you for all the background information on this case. For me it is very easy to sometimes quickly jump to conclusions on such news cases (like Dutch translated "best helmsmen stand ashore"), but you have shown here, that I better be careful to do so, as it "might not be as it seems at first glance"

 

[nPeace]

Well that was rude.

You're the one who said it. Not me.

Nope. Read your words, again.
Quote

Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something?
That's the most apathetic garbage I've ever heard.​

Unquote
Nobody but you, said "Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something".
...and why is everybody rude, but you, when you say the rudest things?

 

[nPeace]

I strongly suggest you explain this to children

I think some children understand this better than some adults.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Nope. Read your words, again.
Quote

Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something?
That's the most apathetic garbage I've ever heard.​

Unquote
Nobody but you, said "Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something".
...and why is everybody rude, but you, when you say the rudest things?

Try reading the post you wrote, that I was responding to:

What are you trying to say.. that the cops were wilfully negligent? I don't know that they were.
If indeed they were, you or I can't change that.
The world is what it is.
Will it get better?
I believe it will, under God's kingdom.
In the meantime, more people - including children, will die at the hands of evil men, and no human - not police, not government... will stop it. Why?
They can't... No matter how hard they try.

What is rude about what I said? That's what I took from what you wrote in that post. You could correct me. But you didn't. Instead, you said that what I said was garbage, because it came from me.

 

[Fool]

I think some children understand this better than some adults.

Run

Hide

Fight.

You do one of these three in an active shooter situation. Wait and see, stop an think are not part of the equation.

 

[nPeace]

In the context of this thread, IMO this is a very important one, because in a school are many innocent persons and here is 1 cold killer. So, police going in there must be very well equipped to handle that situation.

Yes. They need to be equipped to take out the target, while protecting, and not harming the children, and they need to prevent loss of life of the rescue team.
All important, and not to be treated with a hand wave, and a "bah".

Another crucial observation in the context of this thread, IMO.

I don't know much about US police, not even about the Dutch police. But in movies they show that for specific tasks they have specific well trained experts. And sometimes those who arrive first need to wait for the experts to arrive, in the mean time taking control of the situation. This makes sense to me, and usual there is some truth in movies.

IF the ones arriving first were patrol officers it makes sense to me that they were under equipped to solve this specific situation, and were therefore quite hesitant to act.

At first I thought they did nothing too, because I watched it muted, but then I got more information, and they did engage the shooter, who fired at them, causing them to take cover, and it made sense to retreat from the corridor, since they could not see the shooter, who could prop behind the wall, and spray the corridor with bullets.

People talk about bullet proof vest, but I have never seen a bullet proof vest fit any cops' head, arms, crotch and legs.

This does not make them cowards at all, it makes them thoughtful and responsible

@nPeace thank you for all the background information on this case. For me it is very easy to sometimes quickly jump to conclusions on such news cases (like Dutch translated "best helmsmen stand ashore"), but you have shown here, that I better be careful to do so, as it "might not be as it seems at first glance"

You are most welcomed stvdv.
I feel pleased to know that not everyone.. well, I'd better keep that to myself as promised.
Thanks for this post.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Yes. They need to be equipped to take out the target, while protecting, and not harming the children, and they need to prevent loss of life of the rescue team.
All important, and not to be treated with a hand wave, and a "bah".

So you are of the opinion that the safety of officers who swore an oath to protect the public (who were armed and wearing body protection) was more important than that of the teachers and kids (who were not armed or wearing body protection) who were wounded and under direct threat of immediate eminent danger?

Is that really what you’re saying?

 

[nPeace]

Try reading the post you wrote, that I was responding to:

What are you trying to say.. that the cops were wilfully negligent? I don't know that they were.
If indeed they were, you or I can't change that.
The world is what it is.
Will it get better?
I believe it will, under God's kingdom.
In the meantime, more people - including children, will die at the hands of evil men, and no human - not police, not government... will stop it. Why?
They can't... No matter how hard they try.

What is rude about what I said? That's what I took from what you wrote in that post. You could correct me. But you didn't. Instead, you said that what I said was garbage, because it came from me.

Why do I even bother responding to you at all.
Consider that rude, if you like.

I really do wonder about you - if it's your level of understanding, or your view toward being honest... Seriously, I do.

That's what I took from what you wrote in that post
No. That's what you decided to post from your own mind.
Then you tell me what?
Try reading the post you wrote, that I was responding to:

Isn't that rude of you. Suggesting I don't even know what I wrote... or worst.
I could read that until the world ends, and I would never see Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something
Would you like someone to do that to you?

Then you put in your usual belittling rudeness upon something you made up, to try to make the one you respond to look like a fool - That's the most apathetic garbage I've ever heard..... as you usually do.... and then want an apology.... as usual.
Then you twist things to make it appear as though the person is the one who started the rudeness - you said that what I said was garbage, because it came from me
You are the one who said it's garbage, not me.
If you view it as garbage, why are you annoyed when I agree with you?

I really wonder about you. Really.

I don't owe you an apology. It would be the other way around, but because I owe you love, I will do this...
You did not represent what I said in a truthful way. Can you correct it?
Also, it's not nice to do to others, what you would not like them to do to you. Can you work on that?

 

[nPeace]

Run

Hide

Fight.

You do one of these three in an active shooter situation. Wait and see, stop an think are not part of the equation.

I think these guys are fighting.
What do you think. that they are only fighting when they move from behind the vehicle, and just stand with guns blazing?

Stupidity has nothing to do with this.

 

[Sheldon]

The less equipped and less protected officers that tried to get to the shooter who were only 3 minutes behind the shooter, were fired upon.

The trained (I meant trained for this particular situation) and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes

You have to remember, I am viewing the video.
View attachment 64564

So my perspective is not from the school. which puts me 10... or less, minutes behind then.
So okay, they arrive less then 20 minutes after the first response, and attempt.

Their judgment dictated that they need additional protection, tear gas canisters, and a strategy that might work better than the first, and they move toward the door roughly 25 minutes after.... or whatever people think...

You see that as negligence? Okay. Thanks.
I guess some people might also think that a surgeon calling for particular instruments and gear, in a situation that comes up during surgery, is negligent, if that takes a few minutes.
He decided to let the patient die, according to their view.

I guess the courts get to decide that.
Everyone has their opinion. Doesn't mean they are right, or have taken all the facts into consideration.

"Texas DPS says local police made crucial error as school shooting continued"

"Police officers did not act sooner to stop the 18-year-old gunman rampaging at Robb Elementary School because the school district's chief of police wanted to wait for backup and equipment, said Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety. Meanwhile, students were still trapped inside with the gunman, repeatedly calling 911 for help.

By the time a specialized team of federal officers arrived and entered the school — they had to get keys from a janitor to open locked classroom doors — more than an hour had passed since the shooter had arrived at the school, McCraw said.

That was a mistake, McCraw said at a Friday press conference.
“From the benefit of hindsight, where I’m sitting now, of course it was not the right decision,” McCraw said. “It was the wrong decision, period. There's no excuse for that.”

“When it comes to an active shooter, you don't have to wait on tactical gear, plain and simple,” he said.

"I am livid about what happened," Abbott said, adding that the Texas Rangers and the FBI are investigating the shooting response and will "get to the bottom of every fact with absolute certainty."

McCraw also revealed Friday that the gunman entered the school through a back door that minutes before had been propped open by a teacher. He said a police officer employed by the school district responded to an initial 911 call about an armed man near the school — but drove past the gunman, who was “hunkered down” behind a vehicle, and mistook a teacher for the shooter.

McCraw detailed harrowing 911 calls by teachers and students trapped inside with the gunman, including one at 12:47 p.m. — more than an hour after the shooter entered the school — when a student begged the 911 operator: “Please send the police now.”"

That does sound pretty damning.

 

[Sheldon]

In the context of this thread, IMO this is a very important one, because in a school are many innocent persons and here is 1 cold killer. So, police going in there must be very well equipped to handle that situation.

IF the ones arriving first were patrol officers it makes sense to me that they were under equipped to solve this specific situation, and were therefore quite hesitant to act.

It seems the state's top law enforcement official disagrees.

“The wrong decision”: Texas DPS says local police made crucial error as school shooting continued

“When it comes to an active shooter, you don't have to wait on tactical gear, plain and simple,” he said.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why do I even bother responding to you at all.
Consider that rude, if you like.

I really do wonder about you - if it's your level of understanding, or your view toward being honest... Seriously, I do.

Yeah, I'm real stoopid-like. And a liar. I needs myself an edumucation. You got me.

That's what I took from what you wrote in that post
No. That's what you decided to post from your own mind.
Then you tell me what?
Try reading the post you wrote, that I was responding to:

What part of that's what I took from your post do you not get?
You could have attempted to correct me. Did you? Nope.
Instead you said that what I said was garbage, because it came from me.

Isn't that rude of you. Suggesting I don't even know what I wrote... or worst.

I suggested no such thing.
Again, what part of that's what I took from your post do you not understand?
You still haven't even tried to correct me. Instead, you're going on about my level of understanding and my character.

I could read that until the world ends, and I would never see Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something
Would you like someone to do that to you?

You still haven't attempted to correct me and tell me what you actually meant. Why is that?

Then you put in your usual belittling rudeness upon something you made up, to try to make the one you respond to look like a fool - That's the most apathetic garbage I've ever heard..... as you usually do.... and then want an apology.... as usual.

Who said I want an apology? Not me.
Perhaps you're projecting your low "level of understanding" onto me.

Notice how I attacked your words and your argument and not you personally. No, you didn't.
Notice how your attacks are personal ones? Attacking my "level of understanding" and my honesty?

Then you twist things to make it appear as though the person is the one who started the rudeness - you said that what I said was garbage, because it came from me
You are the one who said it's garbage, not me.
If you view it as garbage, why are you annoyed when I agree with you?

I view it as apathetic garbage.

I really wonder about you. Really.

I wonder too. I wonder when you're going to clarify what you actually meant to say in that post. Instead, you've decided to jabber on and on about your hurt feelings or whatever.
Are you ever going to explain what you actually meant, since I got it so wrong?

I don't owe you an apology.

Never said you did.

It would be the other way around, but because I owe you love, I will do this...
You did not represent what I said in a truthful way. Can you correct it?

You still didn't point out where I was rude to you. Attacking your argument isn't rude, it's literally what goes on here.
Attacking you personally, as you've done to me, is what is rude.

Are you going to clarify what you meant in that post, or not?

Also, it's not nice to do to others, what you would not like them to do to you. Can you work on that?

Thanks for the condescension. Maybe try taking your own advice. Or perhaps your "level of understanding" or your "view toward being honest" aren't up to snuff.

I'm fine with people attacking my arguments. That's part of debate.

Are you going to clarify what you meant in that post sometime, or not?
This is just a massive deflection from the discussion.

 

[Fool]

I think these guys are fighting.
What do you think. that they are only fighting when they move from behind the vehicle, and just stand with guns blazing?

Stupidity has nothing to do with this.

that isn't what was going on in uvalde. you didn't even bother to post an actual picture from uvalde showing immediate response.


again 45 minutes later is negligent.

 

[nPeace]

"Texas DPS says local police made crucial error as school shooting continued"

"Police officers did not act sooner to stop the 18-year-old gunman rampaging at Robb Elementary School because the school district's chief of police wanted to wait for backup and equipment, said Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety. Meanwhile, students were still trapped inside with the gunman, repeatedly calling 911 for help.

By the time a specialized team of federal officers arrived and entered the school — they had to get keys from a janitor to open locked classroom doors — more than an hour had passed since the shooter had arrived at the school, McCraw said.

That was a mistake, McCraw said at a Friday press conference.
“From the benefit of hindsight, where I’m sitting now, of course it was not the right decision,” McCraw said. “It was the wrong decision, period. There's no excuse for that.”

“When it comes to an active shooter, you don't have to wait on tactical gear, plain and simple,” he said.

"I am livid about what happened," Abbott said, adding that the Texas Rangers and the FBI are investigating the shooting response and will "get to the bottom of every fact with absolute certainty."

McCraw also revealed Friday that the gunman entered the school through a back door that minutes before had been propped open by a teacher. He said a police officer employed by the school district responded to an initial 911 call about an armed man near the school — but drove past the gunman, who was “hunkered down” behind a vehicle, and mistook a teacher for the shooter.

McCraw detailed harrowing 911 calls by teachers and students trapped inside with the gunman, including one at 12:47 p.m. — more than an hour after the shooter entered the school — when a student begged the 911 operator: “Please send the police now.”"

That does sound pretty damning.

"I am livid about what happened," Abbott said, adding that the Texas Rangers and the FBI are investigating the shooting response and will "get to the bottom of every fact with absolute certainty."

 

[Sheldon]

"I am livid about what happened," Abbott said, adding that the Texas Rangers and the FBI are investigating the shooting response and will "get to the bottom of every fact with absolute certainty."

That's part of the link I already quoted? Why are you quoting it back to me?

 

[nPeace]

Yeah, I'm real stoopid-like. And a liar. I needs myself an edumucation. You got me.


What part of that's what I took from your post do you not get?
You could have attempted to correct me. Did you? Nope.
Instead you said that what I said was garbage, because it came from me.


I suggested no such thing.
Again, what part of that's what I took from your post do you not understand?
You still haven't even tried to correct me. Instead, you're going on about my level of understanding and my character.



You still haven't attempted to correct me and tell me what you actually meant. Why is that?


Who said I want an apology? Not me.
Perhaps you're projecting your low "level of understanding" onto me.

Notice how I attacked your words and your argument and not you personally. No, you didn't.
Notice how your attacks are personal ones? Attacking my "level of understanding" and my honesty?


I view it as apathetic garbage.


I wonder too. I wonder when you're going to clarify what you actually meant to say in that post. Instead, you've decided to jabber on and on about your hurt feelings or whatever.
Are you ever going to explain what you actually meant, since I got it so wrong?


Never said you did.


You still didn't point out where I was rude to you. Attacking your argument isn't rude, it's literally what goes on here.
Attacking you personally, as you've done to me, is what is rude.

Are you going to clarify what you meant in that post, or not?


Thanks for the condescension. Maybe try taking your own advice. Or perhaps your "level of understanding" or your "view toward being honest" aren't up to snuff.

I'm fine with people attacking my arguments. That's part of debate.

Are you going to clarify what you meant in that post sometime, or not?
This is just a massive deflection from the discussion.

So you get things from what people say, but I don't. I see.

You are asking for clarity?
You didn't get it? It wasn't clear?
That's odd.

Skeptic, please do no play as though you are ignorant to what nPeace has said repeatedly on these forums.
If you think Christians made up God, or that they are hoping there is a God, but they are uncertain, dreaming, or praying for one, run with that belief.
If you think there is no God, run with that belief.

I'm not up to your games on this thread... or any thread, for that matter.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So you get things from what people say, but I don't. I see.

You are asking for clarity?

Yes, clarity would be nice. Why so resistant?
If it were me, I'd already have clarified by now. What's the hold up?

You didn't get it? It wasn't clear?
That's odd.

Yeah, I only said it about 10 times.

Skeptic, please do no play as though you are ignorant to what nPeace has said repeatedly on these forums.

Are you talking about yourself in the third person?

If you think Christians made up God, or that they are hoping there is a God, but they are uncertain, dreaming, or paying for one, run with that belief.
If you think there is no God, run with that belief.

I'm not up to your games on this thread... or any thread, for that matter.

LOL Now you're accusing me of playing games? Why can't you just clarify what you meant? Why are you being so defensive? You wouldn't have to be if you'd just explain what you meant.


I guess you aren't going to. Okay, then I guess I have to go on how I took it the first time around, because that's all I have.

 

[nPeace]

That's part of the link I already quoted? Why are you quoting it back to me?

the Texas Rangers and the FBI are investigating the shooting response and will "get to the bottom of every fact with absolute certainty.
The opinions of anyone is not the important thing here.
The findings from the investigation of the facts are.
Right now, you have given your view. Thanks.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, clarity would be nice. Why so resistant?
If it were me, I'd already have clarified by now. What's the hold up?


Yeah, I only said it about 10 times.


Are you talking about yourself in the third person?


LOL Now you're accusing me of playing games? Why can't you just clarify what you meant? Why are you being so defensive? You wouldn't have to be if you'd just explain what you meant.


I guess you aren't going to. Okay, then I guess I have to go on how I took it the first time around, because that's all I have.

Do as you wish. Only you can control your behavior, and thinking.
I will do what I think is necessary to do.