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Do you as a Muslim believe in women's equality?

Draka

Wonder Woman
@Robert.Evans Can you at least try to be consistent? You can't go on and on about how a woman is better equipped to raise children, that they are better at it than men, and also continue to complain that women get custody of children rather than men. It is you, your line of thinking, that is insisting women be the ones responsible for raising children in the first place. You put men down, discredit them, devalue their ability to raise children, and in the same breath claim that those without fathers in their lives suffer. So which is it? Are fathers good parents or not? And do you truly not see that it is this patriarchal insane archaic idea that women are automatically better at child rearing naturally than men that plays into custody arrangements. It is not feminism that determines that women get custody. It is not women's rights that determine that women get custody more, it is exactly your line of thought, still pervasive in our patriarchal constructed societies, that is what is influencing court judgments to go in that direction.

What I find quite humorous is that you don't know who you are arguing with right now. Yes, you know I have performed several jobs, jobs you feel a man should have had, but beyond that you don't seem to know anything about me or my life. Yes, I have served in the military. Yes, I did perform a job in a male dominated field while in (avionics technician). I also served in the Naval Reserves as an EO in the Seabees (yes dearie, they're the ones who do construction and an EO is an equipment operator, you know, cranes and bulldozers and the like). I have also worked as both an industrial electrician and an industrial mechanic in a factory. I guess you hate all of that. It does speak to my abilities and my education though. If a man would have been more suited to hold my jobs they would have. What you don't know is me. You don't know my personal life, you don't know what I do right now, you don't know the struggles I have gone through, the people I have helped through struggles, and obviously, all the views I have. I have often put forth counters to the claims you make about what you think I believe and when I prove you wrong you don't bother to respond directly, but just make absurd claims yet again. Truth is, you have no real clue.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
It is taken from many sources. Are you the only two feminist?

Name three mainstream feminists who state unequivocally that men are worthless. If your sources are as many as you claim, then mining for such declarations should be fairly easy.

A feminist on UK TV said, we set out to ''destroy the family''. Who would have thought a woman would have said that! Then she said she ''realised that they would need men if they had kids'' like that was a brain wave right?

Source?

So they we are. First we see that women have a problem with men being in control of them, as they see it, now we also see that clouded their judgement, and also we see that the family is women's domain and not men's. Sure now you have more power freedom and money, so now you can say, hey, may be I will take a slice of that (men) as well.

Speaking for women, I suggest, is not a strong point you have shown.

Women speaking for ourselves, and having the platform in the public sphere as much as men speaking for themselves, is beneficial overall for society.

I am not interested in men's rights or women's rights. We are supposed to be keeping the commands of God. That one might be tough for you eh?

And yet, you shortly afterward talked about men being stripped of their rights to their children.

And men getting involved in the family more, good. Till they split up, and then the man goes insane. Hey, but who cares, he's just a man right, not a woman. And that unfotunately is the attitude of women. I wonder if the man always had the kids when they broke up, how many would do so.

Again, you do not speak for all women. None of the women here have displayed that attitude about men being worthless. Men not being the head of the house, nor being the head of society does not equate to men being worthless. Men's value is not determined by their imposed cultural leadership status. A man as much as a woman ought to have the freedom to self-determination.

And more often than not, there is a large overlap in the goals and desires of both men and women in the public and private spheres.

Such findings confirm that men and women share much more in humanity and a common ground. That's where peace resides and the battle of the sexes ends.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No
I do not believe any 2 people should be treated equally no matter what their gender is.
I believe in fair and just treatment for all.

Equal treatment usually is neither fair nor just.

a man has 2 children a boy and a girl. If he sends them both to feed the horses should they be treated equal and both have to carry a 100 pound bail of hay. Or should they be treated fairly and each carry only what they can carry comfortably?
No 2 people are equal, we all have different strengths and weaknesses we all should be treated fairly in accordance with our abilities and limitations.

A little help for you.

Ask those Christians why women are paid less than men for the same job in traditionally Christian countries. :)

Ciao

- viole
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
When two persons are basically different you can't consider them equal
It's not reasonable.
This is true in some ways. Not all people are qualified to do all jobs. If, however, someone is qualified, then their sex should not be a determining factor as to whether they get the job or not.
Yes, I did perform a job in a male dominated field while in (avionics technician).
Cool (I'm an aviation enthusiast).
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
no it doesn't. It is about women having more power and money. Sure, now people realise how chavaunistic women actually are, the tables turn, and we see cases where women are called s-xist. So now you have some power, you change your tactics a little to fit in. Anyone who wants to rule has to know how to play the game, and women are always good at manipulating people.

If you're bent on stubbornly viewing these issues in binary terms without flexiblity, I think we're done here.

Haha.... wonderful. So all along it was me that was wrong...haha. Good. So now we will say that you cannot have the righ tto vote, and you must stay home and be married. Okay? Or are you now becoming a little insecure and having difficulty with change? haha. When I was younger, that would have gone right over my head. Now I see these things.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps Draka was right and that this has been no more than an attempt to troll.

It's thoroughly disappointing that the aforementioned is all that you have to offer in response to my last post., unless of course I'm missing something in between your snickers.

But you have benefitted from them.

You mean benefited? (wink)
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
We can treat them as precious human beings and I believe that women are more precious than men in Islam. The mother is more important than the father and the wife is more important than the offspring. Not that one side is not important of course.



Yes but I'm as angry at those as you are, and even more. Those are bad seeds in cultures, not bad cultures. Saudi Arabia has different cultures and mine is the Hijazi culture.



Look, I'm really sorry I snapped up there. But to call what I say nonsense and implying things about my culture is the reason that happened and I shouldn't have let it happen. You can always tell me I'm wrong and it is always welcomed specially with the reason why.
My friend-.
1. you are trying to talk about the situation of women in society.
But you try to stay away from dialogue on religious and Islamic ideology.
2. the Islamic ideology is the theme of the dialogue
3. you will go to heaven
4. because you're Muslim??
5. There are nymphs, immortal boys
6. exercise with sex??
7. am I right??
8. your spouse also will go to Jannah???
What do you do there???
9. I am talking about ideology called Islam
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
to-smart -jay
I am talking aboutideologycalledIslam!!!!
Thefollowingteachings!!!
1. the share of women = 1
2. the share of men = 2
3. This is Islamic inheritance law??
4. does no justice in it??
I am talking aboutideologycalledIslam!!!
1. the testimony of women is not acceptable in the Islamic courts
2. two women only
3. why this discrimination??
I am also at the heart of the matter
In Islamic law
!!
1. women deficient mind???
2. also in religion??
I am also in the heart of Islamic Sharia??
Womenequalstools
Women=faeces
I am also at the heart of your law, Islamic
1-hit women in Islamic law
I also speak of Islamic Sharia???
1. women have the right to divorce???
2. women requests the judicial separation??
The question remains
Is thereequalityin thisIslamic law??
Wait foryou toanswer
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
haha.... now that is funny. I am pleased for your parents and that they were good; but you in your love on the old world, should be in line with what I am saying, but it seems you want all the good part of old, but you don't want the part you think is bad. haha.... how hypocritical.
I suppose your father (with greatest of respest) in saying that you should stand on your own two feet, was protecting his own interests. Think about it.

No because my father mellowed in his old age. He admitted that the lessons he grew up with were sometimes worth preserving sometimes awful. For example, manners and common courtesy. Worth preserving. The legal thrashings his teachers inflicted upon him during his school boy days, barbaric and should be left to the past where it belongs.He was so damaged by those beatings that he went out of his way to protect kids from such treatment. See? You can have one without the other. We move past certain things, but some things were right regardless of era, imho. In other words, I don't have to agree with all the bad of past generations, just to have the good. We evolve.

How was he protecting his own interests? By guiding his child to think of themselves as more than just a vagina? Yep, so self serving.

That is blasphemy, not that I suppose you are bothered. After all, you seem to have a problem doing your own role.

How is that blasphemy? Taking the Lord's name in vain has a few different interpretations, just FYI.
I don't want kids right now. But I'm young, I want to live first. And I suck at housework. Like seriously, suck at it. I am quite good at other things though. But you're right, I'm an awful person. Playing to my strengths and actually having a life past using my uterus to make babies. :rolleyes:

I'm kind of curious to see how you would handle yourself if you had a woman who was the boss at your work situation. Now that could prove interesting to watch. But I digress.

You're talking to one now. I think you do, IF you can't control them.

Who said I want to control them? They are adults, they are free to do as they please. Just don't expect me to respect a man, who is so **** weak he can't hack the responsibilities of child rearing (in equal share) of the woman he gets pregnant. He also chose to have sex, he should shoulder (again, in equal measure) the consequences after birth.
And you basically equated man's ability to raise a child to throwing them in the shed. That's what I'm specifically referring to. That you flat out said that a man can't even hack raising a kid.

No. I call them part of the society we have created in this ungodly country that I live in, changed largely through aggressive feminism which has basiclaly told men where to go. Guess what? We are a bit slow, but it seems we are catching on. There are always cosequences for actions.

Uhh the whole man abandoning women during pregnancy isn't a recent thing. That **** has been happening for eons, far before feminism was even thought of. Perhaps you should try a history book? Also, just FYI before feminism was a thing, women actually did have jobs as well. *gasps*
Governesses were popular during the 18th and 19th century, women were also usually teachers, nurses, cooks/maids (not in their own house, but other peoples!) authors and even scientists. Though female Scientists and authors/poets faced more resistance, than perhaps today, still accomplished great feats.

For the early years, the women is better suited. That is fact. It is not in your interest to say that as you might lose out in the work place. That is just greed orientation. Sad. Then when anyone mention it you hit the roof. Sad.

So, you're saying a man can't even handle rearing a toddler? Wow, **** weak indeed. And working women still often raise their kids. It's not like some weird dichotomy that they have to have one or the other. Balance, my friend, balance. Ever heard of it?
Also, you mistake me for someone career driven. I work because I want to survive, I don't work just to stick it to the man. I study in the hopes that I may get a job I actually like doing. But it's not because I want to stick it to men, either. I'm not going out my way to stop men from pursuing whatever life goal they have in mind. Although men like you can't afford the same courtesy towards us, it seems. Men are free to study, work and compete in the job market like everyone else has to.
But I figure, (like most people do nowadays) if I must work in order to have enough money to eat, I might as well do something I actually enjoy doing and get paid for it. So we work to achieve that goal. As people. Will I end up a housewife raising kids? I don't know, it's possible. But I most certainly do know I don't want to do that right this very second. I have a life too, you know?

But should'nt

Agreed. Both MEN and WOMEN should think long and hard about having sex and shouldn't just go around creating babies just for the hell of it.

And it takes a women to be a mother.

I agree with that too. Do not think that I find it less appalling when a woman shirks their responsibilities as a mother. But unlike you, I don't see her and fathers as just that. They are people too. And they should raise their kids, whilst balancing the responsibility of living in the modern world. That means making enough money to survive. As I have said previously, sometimes it's just unavoidable to have both parents working, sometimes it's all up to the mother. Injury, death, disease, these things happen. Unless the woman goes out of her home and does someone else's house chores, housework ain't going to feed, clothe and keep the kids alive. Although you seem to flat out ignore that.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Outside of the house! I would have thought that was obvious. You cannot look after a baby or young child whilst driving a digger can you.
I am not saying you don't work! You work, but there should be separation in the genders. And no, before you say it, you can still come out of the house and ask what that big bright think is in the sky.

No you can actually. A young child might go to Kindergarten/Prep (school) during the day, when the woman drives her digger. In this way she does not miss a single second of the kid's life. Or perhaps she works nights, when the kid is sound asleep and thus the kid does not realize her missing presence.
Also workplaces are actually required by law to have paid maternity (and for some business paternity) leave. People in our modern world still do acknowledge the importance of the mother/father and child bond and the responsibilities that go with it. So women and these days even men take off time from work, whilst still getting an income allowing them such a luxury, to spend precious and valuable time with their infant. But again, you can't feed your kids on lollypops and sunshine. So often it's back to work for either or both parents after whatever period of time they can afford or want off work, so their kid won't starve to death. (What evil people, amirite?) Some women return to work after a few months, some a few years. It's different for different people, because of different circumstances they have to live around.

Oh I see, it's HER kid is it. How enlightening.

Well I was specifically referring to women forced to work to pay for their kid's life. In whatever circumstance they have to deal with. Hence "her" kid.I should have been more specific, you're right. My bad.

But since men in your worldview have to be in the workforce outside of the home, presumably not filling the role of houseparent 24/7 like a woman "has to" because of their "busy busy manly schedules" they suddenly want the shared credit too? You want the credit, step up like you want mothers to do and take care of the kid as well. Be a damned parent. Then they can call the kid theirs. Eh?

Typical over eggareation from a woman in this subject. You just can't talk about it can you. To you, if your not working and just bringing up children, your nothing, perhaps less than nothing. I have no idea why you would think that. Perhaps men have made this rod for their own back not valuing you when you did use to keep your role, which you now don't.

Because women are more than baby making machines who take care of the household chores .If a woman chooses to be a housewife and is perfectly content with that particular life, then I will throw her a party and celebrate her happiness with her. But that's not what every single woman in the world wants. Nor should every single woman be confined to such a structure simply because she's a woman/feminine. Like you are talking about. That's what I take issue with. That you want us all to belong to some specific role for women based on nothing more than being born without two Y chromosomes (speaking generally of course. Some women are actually born with two YYs but that's another discussion for another day.)
Also, trust me, I know working mothers, I don't really think I want to work and have kids at the same time. It looks utterly exhausting.
Some women want to examine their favorite Scientific/philosophical/academic discipline, some might want to scale a freaking mountain, some women want to write a book, some might want to be a mechanic, some might just want to work in a library selling old books. Whatever.
What you are suggesting is that we all scrap such plans, such lives and settle down into out "female" roles as housewife and baby maker. Because by Jesus, that's what we're "supposed" to do. Yeah, well maybe we as people want to do other things before, during or even after being all maternal. Maybe some of us don't even want to do that until we are like mature or are ready. Or find the right guy to share that with. (Or girl. Whatever.) And because we don't want to be all maternal for quite some time, we don't want to sit on our thumbs until such a time as we think we are ready to have kids. Did you even think about that?
Some women might never want to have kids (or can't have them even.) Maybe they fulfill their lives in other ways. Mentoring children at the PCYC or being an enthusiastic and passionate teacher or I don't know, explore the seven wonders of the world. There's a whole big world out there and women, being human beings and all that, have their own aspirations and dreams that does not always include tunnel vision towards having kids and settling down into being all housewives.

You mean they would misunderstand it as well I suppose. Either way we are the masculine and feminine of God and as such we are supposed to do what is pleasing to him, and in that way benefit us.

No I mean they would call you all sorts of colorful language and would most likely accuse you of being a backwards ******* who belongs in the 1700s. Along with your notions of masculinity, femininity, humanity and genders which are so outdated even the likes of Shakespeare would tell you to go back in time to find a suitable and more agreeable audience. Amongst other sentiments.

And maybe God created a woman with a vast amount of potential intelligence. Maybe that's the biggest strength God gave to that particular woman. Intelligence isn't inherently masculine or feminine, after all. So would it not be prudent for that particular woman to actually achieve something with her God given intelligence that betters mankind overall? Like say revolutionize medicine? Or is she to reject such a gift bestowed upon her by God by squandering it by just marrying young and raising kids instead? Because dammit, she's feminine and her place is in the home, raising kids. Not in the workforce actually using whatever strengths God gave to her to better herself or other people.
Seriously. What do you think would please God more? Squandering His gifts? Or using what He gave you to do something actually worthwhile in this wold? Something that could help thousands, or inspire generations or (insert great achievement here.) Hmm? Childbearing is all awesome and such, but there are other achievements in this world, accomplished by both men and women, which helps mankind overall as well. Medical discoveries, inspirational art/texts to name a few. And those achievements are often immortal. Not saying one is better than the other, just saying.
I also don't think God can be restricted to such primitive endeavors as to just making men for the sole purpose of working for a living (a relatively new construct, just FYI) and women just there so someone can raise the kids.
He's surely more complex in his creative choices than that! Or else he's awful bloody primitive, imo. (Oh yeah I went there.) But that's just my personal interpretation. So....whatever.

Thank you for the threat. Just shows again that you cannot discuss it and that you have ungodly values. And that is probably half of the problem. Violence and aggression is seen as a plus in the world is it not. Being peaceable and having good interpersonal skills is not.

Actually that's just me being a jovial Australian. You shouldn't take such sentiments all that seriously from me. We Aussies just sort of talk roughly and sort of menacing, but we don't often actually mean it. Also you don't know me or my religious affiliation or any such values I hold. Nor do I know of yours.

Again you show your insecurities that if you are not outside in the man's world, you are somehow of no value. Very telling I think.

Perhaps if you read a little bit more carefully you might see I am not saying what you think I am saying. Women should work, but there should be a separation of the genders. And their primary goal should be bringing up the human race so we don't have gangs and violence and you so called trucker friends with their aggressive outspoken rude violent ways. That is the very thing I am fighting again/....falling on deaf ears of course.

And again, you fail to see that we are more than that. We are more than some arbitrary "feminine" roles from a hundred years ago. We live here in the now. We have our own thoughts and dreams. It's all about choice for us. Some of us choose not to live in the house and raise kids. Some of us choose to share the household responsibilities with our respective partners. Some of us do choose to live happily as a housewife. But to use your terminology that sentiment falls on deaf ears. What we are saying is that we want the choice to live up to whatever job we happen to aspire to. And not be bound to a particular job just because we were born female.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
If you're bent on stubbornly viewing these issues in binary terms without flexiblity, I think we're done here.



I'm beginning to think that perhaps Draka was right and that this has been no more than an attempt to troll.

It's thoroughly disappointing that the aforementioned is all that you have to offer in response to my last post., unless of course I'm missing something in between your snickers.



You mean benefited? (wink)
No I meant ''benefitted''. That is how we spell it in the UK ;)
From Wiki:
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

I think you will find the inflammatory remarks were against me. I have given evidence to back up my views. I think the insult were also against me.

We are done? fine. You have your views I have mine. Oh and the ''snickers'' by the way, was an attempt to make it less attacking in speech. Again, you have your views I have mine.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Seriously. What do you think would please God more? Squandering His gifts? Or using what He gave you to do something actually worthwhile in this wold?

1 Peter 3:4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the ...
biblehub.com/1_peter/3-4.htm

You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God.


  1. Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be ... - Bible Hub
    biblehub.com/titus/2-5.htm

    to live wisely and be pure, to work in their homes, to do good, and to be ... to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own ...
I could add that the apostles were men and you would probably call the lord a chauvinist, not that I recommend it, but I see no reason to bother going any further. You have you ideology and I have mine. We shall await judgement one day and see who is the better equipped to stand before him. Have a nice day. :)
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Governesses were popular during the 18th and 19th century, women were also usually teachers, nurses, cooks/maids (not in their own house, but other peoples!) authors and even scientists. Though female Scientists and authors/poets faced more resistance, than perhaps today, still accomplished great feats.
Yeah you've done a lot.... except keep the family together. Now what was that offensive phrase you keep using to do with weak?
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Women'sspecificnature
2. women have a special function
3. This will not be the difference
4. but equality is in question starting off first.
5. women's equality of men
6. any ideology supersede this equality is not a humanly acceptable
7. equality in rights
8. take away women's right to void legislation
9. women have equal intelligence with men
10. any legislation contrary to this axiom is null
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Although men like you can't afford the same courtesy towards us, it seems. Men are free to study, work and compete in the job market like everyone else has to.
Now that's funny. You equate success it seems with working. I wonder why bringing up the human race to a higher level of social etiquette and manners so we don't have feral kids running round is not seen as being of any value. It is a worldly value to run after wealth adn power. Sad :(
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
But I figure, (like most people do nowadays) if I must work in order to have enough money to eat, I might as well do something I actually enjoy doing and get paid for it.
As already posted, it is a bed you have made. You want the vote, you want the work- you change the market forces. Now you have to work. Market forces change. Why do men side with women working? Because it is more money coming into the house. Why the government? the economy. Why women? Insecurity around men and not valuing yourselves at looking after the most important and valuable thing we have...children! If you do it right, we have decent people. And if you do it wrong, we have thugs.

It is an important job that is sadly overlooked because of the modern mindset of women and the men who follow it to save an argument.

You think it is weak. Trying standing in my shoes. It is they who have a backbone made out of rubber not me.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
And they should raise their kids, whilst balancing the responsibility of living in the modern world.
Ahhh.... and there you have it... the ''modern world'' a world WE create. Clearly I am of a different decade, but it worked then, so don't knock them for saying they were wrong. It had been that way for generations. It is only since the world has been made easier largely by men, that you now want to do these things.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
As I have said previously, sometimes it's just unavoidable to have both parents working, sometimes it's all up to the mother. Injury, death, disease, these things happen. Unless the woman goes out of her home and does someone else's house chores, housework ain't going to feed, clothe and keep the kids alive. Although you seem to flat out ignore that.
Market forces. You make your bed now lie in it... that is the saying. We mkae what we have, did you not kno w that?
 
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