Do you as a Muslim believe in women's equality?

[Robert.Evans]

No, not intimidated by men at all.

So go home and put the man as the head as the NT tells you then, O confidant woman
[/QUOTE]
As I'm equal to them why should I be intimidated by them?
[/QUOTE]
And how are you equal to them? and why would you even think such a thing in the first place?

Insecurity perhaps.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that women should be intimidated by the "stronger sex"?

At least you acknowledge that men are the stronger gender.

You are not arguing about "what is best for the greater society", you are simply arguing from the

standpoint your religion has given you. Your beliefs, your preferences. It has nothing to do

with reality, with real society, and everything to do with how Robert.Evans personally feels.
She asks a question and she is "playing games"? Rather than accuse her of "playing games" why

don't you actually just answer her question? A question you have refused to answer for her for a

while now.

I am arguing for the greater good... you are thinking of yourself.

Oh, and is the sacrifice a female doctor makes to become a doctor not worth the same as the

sacrifice a man makes to become one? Is her sacrifice not a good one? The lives she may save?

The contributions to the field of medicine not as much as a man's? If she develops the cure for a

deadly disease it should be looked down upon her for doing such because what she really

should have been doing is raising babies at home rather than saving thousands or even millions

of lives with her cure? We should sacrifice lives because you would rather females stay home

and raise children they may or may not have even though those children may already be well

looked after by their fathers or other relation while these females dare to hold jobs?

Did you just miss the point of what I said? Are you bothering to read it at all or is this just more

trolling?

So to you, all women must be responsible for continual child care, regardless of if they even

have any, regardless of if their children are or can be looked after by anyone else, regardless of if

their children are teens and can care for themselves for some hours after school while their

mother works, regardless of if her children are grown and have left the nest so to speak? A

woman should not work outside the home even if she is divorced, if she is widowed, if she is

single?

They work around the home. I said WORK. That does not imply it is always child related. What is wrong with your eyes? You read what you want do you.

Oh, and obviously men were not "doing okay" without women working, else women wouldn't

have been in certain fields all along nor have moved into other fields. Women have been nurses,

assistants in some fields for centuries. Sometimes they needed to step up and work in men's

stead when the men weren't around (as who can be there all the time). Women were called to

work even more during times of war. Men would leave to defend their land, their countries,

their homes, and women would step up to work in their stead as well. Who do you think were

tending the fields? Chopping the wood? Selling the wares while men, throughout centuries,

went to defend their homes? Who worked in factories while men were away? Who stepped up

when industrial boons were made and more workers were needed? Children didn't suffer,

haven't suffered, all this time while women worked. And men were not "doing okay" without

women. Women have always been relied upon to be able to work.

As I say, they should WORK.I don't know how many times I have to say this. As for war, that is part of what you should be teaching your children... so as to stop wars in the first place. We are not supposed to kill!

This is just tripe. I think you know that.

I think what you read is that, not mine. You are not taking this discussion seriously. You are trolling.

Do you not get it, after it has been explained to you time and time again, that this "greater job" is

something that is being done by both parents? Men are just as responsible for their children and

how they are raised as women. Or do you just want to ignore the role men play in their

families?

The proof is in the pudding. In the UK we have feral kids who don't care one iota for law or rule and do pretty much what they want. That is brought about by the break up of the family. The evidence is there to see. You are still to intimidated by men to do your own role, but you'd rather give men a guilt trip for something they do not deserve so as to get them to do part of your jobs. That is just irresponsible.

Do you not see that this is men's responsibility as well? Not just women?

When they get older yes

Why is it that everyone else here isn't expressing an opinion, but being a "bully" to you? You do

not see that perhaps you are the one in the bullying position?

No.

The one shaking their finger,

admonishing all women for daring to have their own dreams, for being so bold as to contribute

to their household, for trying to survive and not let their children starve or go without? You, the

judgmental one, the scorning one, the one who thinks they know better for half the world's

population?

You have to contribute to the household now because you have broke that household up. Try to stick with reality and not emotions, then you might learn something.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Nah, forget it. I've tried these conversations with you many times in the past. There is the report function. If you feel there is a rule violation in my posts, it's prudent for members to report them.



Again, report if rule violations are disruptive to the conversation.

But no, there is no need for me to continue this attempt at dialogue with you. Have a good one.

What dialogue? You asked a question and I gave evidence and you ignored it and then come out with this. All the way through you have trolled. None of what you have said has been anything close to a discussion, rather assuming you know who I am by misunderstanding my words.

I have reported some. It seems strange that I would have to do with two members of staff here. But the same members of staff were at the last war of words weren't they, and I got called all kind of things. It just seemed to slip by. And for all my reporting now, it is still happening.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What dialogue? You asked a question and I gave evidence and you ignored it and then come out with this. All the way through you have trolled. None of what you have said has been anything close to a discussion, rather assuming you know who I am by misunderstanding my words.

I have reported some. It seems strange that I would have to do with two members of staff here. But the same members of staff were at the last war of words weren't they, and I got called all kind of things. It just seemed to slip by. And for all my reporting now, it is still happening.

Then you misunderstand the mission statement, and it looks like there is a lot of confusion on your part of the rules and regulations. I suggest going back and reviewing them.

There is also confusion on the nature and purpose of moderators. If a report is made, it is not an order or a demand to be met. Reports make staff aware of possible rule violations. Consensus of three moderators must be in place to determine which rule(s) are in violation before action is taken.

I suggest getting back to topic regarding how Islam regards gender equality for women.

 

[Draka]

So go home and put the man as the head as the NT tells you then, O confidant woman

Why should there be a "head"? A couple is to be equal partners in everything. Either one may take charge as seen fit depending on said situation as each have different strengths and weaknesses as individuals, not as genders.

Oh, and why should I live my life by the direction of some random scripture?

And how are you equal to them? and why would you even think such a thing in the first place?

Because we are all human beings in the end. Because who I am, what I can do, who I want to be is not driven by my gender. My reproductive organs do not control my life, neither do men's.

Insecurity perhaps.

I am exceptionally secure. Only those who wish to put themselves above others are insecure in some way. I am not doing that...but one of us is.

At least you acknowledge that men are the stronger gender.

Can't read sarcasm huh? neither one is the "stronger gender", neither the "weaker gender". All people, both men and women, have strength and weaknesses on an individual basis, not as a gender.

I am arguing for the greater good... you are thinking of yourself.

You just keep on saying that all you like, will never make it true though.

Did you just miss the point of what I said? Are you bothering to read it at all or is this just more trolling?

You spoke of sacrifice, I spoke of sacrifice. Don't complain to me if you can't answer the questions.

They work around the home. I said WORK. That does not imply it is always child related. What is wrong with your eyes? You read what you want do you.

As I say, they should WORK.I don't know how many times I have to say this. As for war, that is part of what you should be teaching your children... so as to stop wars in the first place. We are not supposed to kill!

I'm sorry, but I don't get paid to do laundry, vacuum, wash my dishes, cook my meals, clean my kids' room. Would be nice if I did. Many women cannot just work from or around the house and make a living. Most need to go outside of the home to earn enough to just survive. But what do you care? You apparently don't want women to survive. Oh, or perhaps you just don't want women to possibly be able to survive without men? you want us dependent. It makes us easer to control. Makes you feel bigger and more important as a man doesn't it?

I think what you read is that, not mine. You are not taking this discussion seriously. You are trolling.

Like before, keep it coming, doesn't make you right, never will.

The proof is in the pudding. In the UK we have feral kids who don't care one iota for law or rule and do pretty much what they want. That is brought about by the break up of the family. The evidence is there to see. You are still to intimidated by men to do your own role, but you'd rather give men a guilt trip for something they do not deserve so as to get them to do part of your jobs. That is just irresponsible.

Yes, and any issue a child has is automatically the fault of the mother to you isn't? men, of course, play no role. They are innocent, just like Adam.

When they get older yes

No, from the moment the child is born. From the moment they take their first breath. Fathers should be involved, just as responsible for the life they helped create. To expect anything less is to excuse crappy parenting from fathers or excuse them even being around at all.

No.

Well that is too bad because, news flash, you are the one in the bullying position here. You are the one with the unmitigated gall to try to speak for half of the world and what they should be doing. You rant and rave and point your finger and make absurd claims and try to scold.

You have to contribute to the household now because you have broke that household up. Try to stick with reality and not emotions, then you might learn something.

Like I said, the world according to Robert.Evans...it's not reality.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Does anyone get it yet, that it is not about whether a woman can do the job or not, but that she has a greater job to do?
Does anyone see that?
Does anyone yet see that it is not about living in the past, but taking our ability in bringing up children to a higher level.
Does anyone yet see that you are entitled to an opinion, or is everyone too bigoted?

So if I can't have children, what should I do? What is my role? Should I just curl up and die?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why should there be a "head"? A couple is to be equal partners in everything. Either one may take charge as seen fit depending on said situation as each have different strengths and weaknesses as individuals, not as genders.

Oh, and why should I live my life by the direction of some random scripture?

Because we are all human beings in the end. Because who I am, what I can do, who I want to be is not driven by my gender. My reproductive organs do not control my life, neither do men's.

I am exceptionally secure. Only those who wish to put themselves above others are insecure in some way. I am not doing that...but one of us is.

Can't read sarcasm huh? neither one is the "stronger gender", neither the "weaker gender". All people, both men and women, have strength and weaknesses on an individual basis, not as a gender.

You just keep on saying that all you like, will never make it true though.

You spoke of sacrifice, I spoke of sacrifice. Don't complain to me if you can't answer the questions.

I'm sorry, but I don't get paid to do laundry, vacuum, wash my dishes, cook my meals, clean my kids' room. Would be nice if I did. Many women cannot just work from or around the house and make a living. Most need to go outside of the home to earn enough to just survive. But what do you care? You apparently don't want women to survive. Oh, or perhaps you just don't want women to possibly be able to survive without men? you want us dependent. It makes us easer to control. Makes you feel bigger and more important as a man doesn't it?

Like before, keep it coming, doesn't make you right, never will.

Yes, and any issue a child has is automatically the fault of the mother to you isn't? men, of course, play no role. They are innocent, just like Adam.

No, from the moment the child is born. From the moment they take their first breath. Fathers should be involved, just as responsible for the life they helped create. To expect anything less is to excuse crappy parenting from fathers or excuse them even being around at all.


Well that is too bad because, news flash, you are the one in the bullying position here. You are the one with the unmitigated gall to try to speak for half of the world and what they should be doing. You rant and rave and point your finger and make absurd claims and try to scold.
Like I said, the world according to Robert.Evans...it's not reality.

If two couples become "one flesh" or whatever was said, then how does it even make any sense that one of the is the "head?" Or does it only work that way for voting?

I'm with you guys; this guy is a poe.

 

[beenie]

So...

Does Islam believe in equality for women? The short answer is, in terms of worship, yes... the same is expected of men and women. Both are required to do the same five prayers,fast during Ramadan, etc.

In terms of every day life, again, the short answer is more along the lines of "separate but equal"... a man provides for the family and the woman is the queen of the castle, children or not.

That's Islam's view, but Muslims often go further than this, making women subservient and limited in every aspect of life, including worship.

The prescribed "roles" of women is one of my biggest beefs with Islam. It's one thing if a couple agrees to "traditional" roles between the couple, but it's entirely different if it's forced by outdated and often misinterpreted doctrine.

 

[Parsimony]

Does anyone get it yet, that it is not about whether a woman can do the job or not, but that she has a greater job to do?

Raising children in the home is a greater job than working outside the home? Does that mean that the man has the lesser job of the two?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I will do that if try to understand a little deeper before you post, okay?

Understand what? The fact that you have been repeating misogynistic venom in this thread? The fact that you have shown utter disdain for women and your feelings of insecurity at the smallest hint of gender equality? The fact that you keep saying we need to live by the rules of some ancient text even if we don't believe a single bit of it?

There are people who hold hateful and false views but change their mind through dialogue and reason, and then there are those who continue to hold those beliefs and remain impervious to reason or facts. Sometimes therapy is what they need, not discussion.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If two couples become "one flesh" or whatever was said, then how does it even make any sense that one of the is the "head?" Or does it only work that way for voting?

I'm with you guys; this guy is a poe.

Because one head is better than two, right? Even if that head is full of rotten misogyny.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because one head is better than two, right? Even if that head is full of rotten misogyny.

I wouldn't know, I'm just a woman.

 

[Draka]

So if I can't have children, what should I do? What is my role? Should I just curl up and die?

Obviously you are then meant to help other mothers care for their children. That is "women's work" as we should all well know by now. Doesn't matter if you are 18 or 80, childless or have 6 kids, women are only good for running after children and waiting on them hand and foot. Cook, clean, and make and raise babies. So, You need to eat? Have some shelter? Don't bother looking for a job, you'd only steal it from a much more important man. Nah, just continue to slowly starve while offering to help another woman care for her children. Perhaps you'll get lucky and that woman has a husband that makes enough to support you as well. Because, as you know, it is a man's duty to care for us of the "weaker sex". So, go be a burden on some other man. I'm sure that would make some happy here.

 

[Draka]

Raising children in the home is a greater job than working outside the home? Does that mean that the man has the lesser job of the two?

Apparently, given that staying home with children and not working to help their income, pay their bills, and feed and cloth their children, is such an important job that the "weaker" of the sexes needed to be doing it. Wait, that doesn't sound quite right. If it is such an important and difficult job, shouldn't the "stronger" of the sexes do it? If men are the "stronger" of the sexes why are they doing the less important work?

Me thinks there is something wrong here.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Apparently, given that staying home with children and not working to help their income, pay their bills, and feed and cloth their children, is such an important job that the "weaker" of the sexes needed to be doing it. Wait, that doesn't sound quite right. If it is such an important and difficult job, shouldn't the "stronger" of the sexes do it? If men are the "stronger" of the sexes why are they doing the less important work?

Me thinks there is something wrong here.

It's part of the modus operandi of patriarchal customs: exploitation and scapegoating.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So...

Does Islam believe in equality for women? The short answer is, in terms of worship, yes... the same is expected of men and women. Both are required to do the same five prayers,fast during Ramadan, etc.

In terms of every day life, again, the short answer is more along the lines of "separate but equal"... a man provides for the family and the woman is the queen of the castle, children or not.

That's Islam's view, but Muslims often go further than this, making women subservient and limited in every aspect of life, including worship.

The prescribed "roles" of women is one of my biggest beefs with Islam. It's one thing if a couple agrees to "traditional" roles between the couple, but it's entirely different if it's forced by outdated and often misinterpreted doctrine.

I can see that, yeah.

I'll ask you, Shireen, since my questions were lost in a bit of diversion earlier: does Islam assume gender equality to be based on the hetero normative procreative marriage model? Where man provides resources for the family while woman provides gestation and homemaking for the family?

Is it safe to assume that Islam does not consider gender equality for lesbian, bisexual, or trans women outside the sexual economy I spelled out above?

Finally does Islam address gender equality for infertile and post menopausal women?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I can see that, yeah.

I'll ask you, Shireen, since my questions were lost in a bit of diversion earlier: does Islam assume gender equality to be based on the hetero normative procreative marriage model? Where man provides resources for the family while woman provides gestation and homemaking for the family?

Is it safe to assume that Islam does not consider gender equality for lesbian, bisexual, or trans women outside the sexual economy I spelled out above?

Finally does Islam address gender equality for infertile and post menopausal women?

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

(Source of the above translations.)

I think it is worth pointing out that the above verses are interpreted literally by most scholars and Muslims who hold "mainstream" Islamic beliefs, of whom there are hundreds of millions.

As for LGBT rights, Islam is highly heteronormative according to the vast majority of interpretations of its rules and teachings. The Qur'an itself contains verses clearly labeling homosexuality, at least the attraction of men to other men, as unnatural and gravely sinful.

Edit: I'm not trying to answer instead of Ssainhu, by the way; I'm just offering my answer as well.

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't like bullies. If you don't want to discuss, go away! Troll!

You;re the one bullying here. I'm merely calling Poe's Law.

 

[SomeRandom]

The last statement says you are a misandrist.
And as for the rst, you misunderstand because you don'[t really want to listen.

How? Because I called you out for being a whinger? I'd be saying the same things regardless of your sex, sir!
You're the one not listening.

 

[SomeRandom]

I have given evidence to the contrary.

You pulled up some statistics that said one parent homes (it wasn't even sex specific) provided a less stable home. But that again is merely correlation. What were the specific circumstances of those homes? I don't think it was all feminism, because there's economy, there's substance abuse, there's a myriad of potential detrimental factors in those numbers and they don't always even correlate with women working outside of the house. Unless you are suggesting that men are so weak they can't hold a household together? Why then are they the head of the household anyway? According to you the wife would be better suited because she's the one supposed to be in the household all the fecking time.

 

[SomeRandom]

By your own admition, you don't. If you did you would not be arguing with me. To understand it , you would have to be able to discern it, and you can't, as you don't belong to the lord. That is obvious.

It's this brilliant thing called interpretation. Ever heard of it? This is also the reason why there's about a million differing variations of Christianity, Islam and Judaism all accusing one and other of "not having the correct understanding." I do discern it. It's controlling from the get go. Not just women but all it's adherents. But again a different discussion for a different thread.
Way to assume my religious affiliations. You do not speak for God, neither do I, you cannot tell me what my relationship is to the Creator. Because that is mine, not yours.