Do you believe Donald Trump is criminally culpable for events on or around January 6th 2021?

[Truth in love]

Of course. I think you have done an admirable job of explaining your position.

You can’t trust those duplicitous Democrats who just want to frame Trump.

And you can’t trust those nasty Republicans because they are all lying politicians.

And you can’t trust the physical evidence because it all comes from unreliable sources who probably manufactured it in Hollywood. (It’s all cgi).

Have a good night.

there was a thread on here a month or so back where many people claimed a pastor was calling for the killing of guys.
It was a blatant lie.

I like evidence and I like to review things. I often don’t agree with people’s projections onto things. That’s very different from dismissing videos as CGi

 

[Shaul]

Guilty of what? There does not appear to be any evidence at all of his guilty Just unsupported claims by Republicans that are thinner than the claims about Trump's collusion with Russia. You need to maintain consistent standards.

You mean besides his proven drug use? Yeah, crack heads that put strippers that they impregnated on their company payrolls are guilty. “Unsupported claims”. LOL
That’s a good one. Are your going to repeat the whopper that his laptop was “Russian disinformation”? Even the New York Times finally admitted the laptop is genuine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You mean besides his proven drug use? Yeah, crack heads that put strippers that they impregnated on their company payrolls are guilty. “Unsupported claims”. LOL
That’s a good one. Are your going to repeat the whopper that his laptop was “Russian disinformation”? Even the New York Times finally admitted the laptop is genuine.

I can see why you are so upset. Hunter having sex with strippers is impinging on Trump territory. But what does Hunter have to do with anything? It seems that t worse he is guilty of some misdemeanors. Do you think that Trump's children are not guilty of felonies while he was in office? You might seem some of them flipping pretty hard on dear old dad.

But the children re not the topic. You have nothing. In fact you had to accuse Hunter of some of the "crimes" that w e know his father did.

One word of advice. Stay away from handguns if you value your toes.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If there is evidence of intent to act that of course is a different story.

Have you heard the Steve Bannon audio where he narrates exactly what Trump did concerning his claims of election fraud before the election?

 

[VoidCat]

View attachment 64779

I wonder if he watches the January 6th hearings and have thrown some plates as a result...

 

[VoidCat]

I have watched some the hearings... Including the part where someone said he threw plates...Havent seen all of it tho.

I feel with what I've seen so far he's guilty.

I plan on watching all of it when I have time

 

[Guitar's Cry]

So far the only clear and convincing evidence I can find is:

1. Being rude

2. Some violations of good government (like 99% of Dc going back a hundred plus years).

solid evidence that he actually committed a crime should be looked at, but the very people who tried to impeach him for crimes committed by VP Biden are hardly a reliable source.

What makes you believe the accusations of crimes committed by Biden and not the ones of Trump?

What's pretty clear is that Trump conspired to steal the election. There is ample evidence of this.

 

[VoidCat]

My grandma refuses to watch the hearings. She's been watching so much right wing propraganda she can't see past it. She watches fox news mostly but she's been so absorbed with right wing propraganda she believes it to be too liberal and only watches it cuz it spouts ideas closest view to her viewpoint on things

 

[Polymath257]

What if I read them some of my poetry?

I'm not sure there is the political will to make *anyone* endure that.

Waterboarding is one thing.......

 

[Polymath257]

If we want to talk about a really guilty person, we should talk about Hunter Biden.

Really? Did Hunter try to overthrow our government? Did he spread a big lie that an election was stolen? Did he refuse to report to Congress as the Constitution requires? Did he botch a response to a major pandemic? Did he put relatives into positions of power? Did he refuse to release his tax statements as a politician? Did he cozy up to ruthless dictators and declare them friends while belittling our friends and allies? Did he attempt in every way to break up NATO?

What, precisely, did Hunter do that was even close to what Trump did publicly?

 

[SkepticThinker]

So a lot of people think he is guilty even if there’s little agreement on what exactly is the charge.

Meanwhile a sitting member of Congress running for Governor in New York is openly attacked and stabbed in full public view at a campaign event, yet the attacker is promptly released. Lee Zeldin attacker quickly released from jail

Thanks for the Fox "News"/NY Post distraction.
Can we get back to the thread topic now?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, not criminally causative.

For example I might tell my son the I believe the current president should die or that I wished someone would assassinate them. And, my son my kill the president because he believed he was carrying out my specific wishes. Unless there is specific evidence that I gave specific instruction to my son to kill the president, I don't think you could hold me criminally accountable. Even though my son 100% believes he was acting on my instructions.

One could argue my actions were causative of what happened, but not, IMO, criminally causative.

I may express my desires, my beliefs and someone else may decide to act because of my expression of those beliefs, but the individual decides for themselves to take action based on my beliefs. They are responsible for their own choice to act.

I often express a desire/wish for some specific event to happen. Even something something against specific laws. That is not IMO a crime. However, I would have had to give them specific instructions to act against the law to be criminally responsible. Even if I was aware of the crime taking place and didn't tell them I never held any intention for them to act criminally.

I think we need to be held accountable for our actions, not our beliefs or desires even if others decide for themselves to act on our beliefs or desires.

Did you see the testimony from the former member of the Oath Keepers who said he marched on Congress because Trump asked them to in his speech he made right beforehand (the one where he said he'd march with them)? And that he finally left hours later because Trump sent out another Tweet (finally) asking them to go home?

 

[Polymath257]

To all of those saying Trump is innocent:

Imagine what you would say if Obama did the same things. Or Biden.

If you replace Hunter Biden with Ivanka Trump, would you be as concerned about what was done?

My view: if Obama did anything like what Trump did, he would legitimately be convicted of treason. If Ivanka did what Hunter is accused of, it would be yet another thing added to the heap and a minor one at that.

 

[Polymath257]

No, not criminally causative.

For example I might tell my son the I believe the current president should die or that I wished someone would assassinate them. And, my son my kill the president because he believed he was carrying out my specific wishes. Unless there is specific evidence that I gave specific instruction to my son to kill the president, I don't think you could hold me criminally accountable. Even though my son 100% believes he was acting on my instructions.

I would suggest that you not try this. It would reasonably be considered to be criminal conspiracy. This is how career criminals act: they tell others that a job needs to be done and don't say anything specific.

No, you don't have to give specific instructions. All that you need to do is make it clear what you would like and that it needed to be done.

One could argue my actions were causative of what happened, but not, IMO, criminally causative.

And that would be up to a jury to determine, because you would likely be charged, especially if you have previously informed your son about how evil the president is and how his every action is deserving of death, etc.

I may express my desires, my beliefs and someone else may decide to act because of my expression of those beliefs, but the individual decides for themselves to take action based on my beliefs. They are responsible for their own choice to act.

This is precisely the argument of a crime boss: they didn't actually tell anyone to kill their rival. They just said their rival needed to be killed.

I call BS.

I often express a desire/wish for some specific event to happen. Even something something against specific laws. That is not IMO a crime. However, I would have had to give them specific instructions to act against the law to be criminally responsible. Even if I was aware of the crime taking place and didn't tell them I never held any intention for them to act criminally.

That depends a bit on how much you have coached the person who pulls the trigger. If you have previously told them to 'stand by and stand tall', you would very possibly be guilty of criminal conspiracy.

I think we need to be held accountable for our actions, not our beliefs or desires even if others decide for themselves to act on our beliefs or desires.

And we need to be responsible for how we groom others to do our dirty work whether or not we directly tell them to do it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

One of the problem is, if Trump was indicted, he will now have to have a fair and impartial trial. It can no longer be just a kangaroo court trial, that is one-side, partial and biased.

For example, in a fair trial, Trump's lawyers can ask; how come Nancy Pelosi has not testified about her not taking the needed security precautions recommended before jan 6, that could have made this a nonevent? She, as the Speaker of the House is in charge of Capital security. She was warned several days in advance and told to enhance security, but she did nothing. This will come out in a fair trial and need to be answered. Was Nancy getting senile and could not see the risk? Did Nancy think the Republicans would be peaceful on Jan 6, since only the Democrats rioted all summer? Or was this part of a conspiracy to get Trump, since there is also video evidence of rabble rousers, who were from the FBI, who have yet to be questioned by the kangaroo court. The Kangaroo Court will be on trial.

The Democrat appointed AG is not acting because, he does not see things adding up for an indictment that can stick in a fair trial. This mock trial is all theater, before the midterms and before 2024. If the Republicans win the midterms, and then Trump was to win in 2024, they will investigate Hunter Biden, and the coup of 2016.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion Coup, where the Democrats, Rhino Republicans, the then heads of the FBI, and CIA, Hi-tech, and the mass media all conspired, as a team, overthrow a duly elected President? This was a nonstop gang attack, from all sides, for several years; 1000 against 1. It is not coincidence that the main liar; Schiff, is now the head of this kangaroo court. He has the most to lose if there is a trial for his role in the coup of 2016.

The Democrats are playing a game, where they try to make you focus only the events of a brief period of time; after Nancy Pelosi screwed up, to when the propaganda machine started to yell insurrection. They are leaving out the larger context of things. Nobody at the top of the Coup of 2016, was ever punished, and many of the thugs who led that coup, are on this committee. It is a political game to keep themselves out of jail.

If Trump was indicted, all Trump has to do as a defense in a fair trial, is to bring up the coup of 2016, and how those crooks were never punished, and could not be trusted to run a fair election in 2020, since they were motivated to stay out of jail. Trump was ready to finally drain the swamp in his second term.

As commander in chief, he had to do something to avoid the lingering coup from succeeding. This will bring the focus back to the earlier days of 2016, to see if his action were justified, due to so many unpunished criminals still in power, trying to cover up their crimes, using that power. There are hundred of thousand of hours of mass and social media documentation, where these same kangaroo court characters, lied for the coup of 2016. This will create a Trump mistrial, leading to their own indictments.

What I would do is require Schiff present the smoking gun evidence he said he had during the entire coup of 2016. If he does not present it, then use the FBI to raid his home at night and throw him in jail for contempt of Court. There was never any evidence since that was part of the scam. So he will not be able to present anything, even he wanted to, so he can stay in jail, until he sings and breaks ranks.

I would also ask Mueller and his group of 20 shady Democrat lawyers, why their final report did not find that Hillary Clinton bought the fake dossier that was the pretense for the Coup of 2016? How could they all miss that? These lawyers may need to face trial and be forced to pay back their ill gotten gains. Using tax payer money to run a partisan investigation, may also be a crime and need to be paid back by the DNC. The clock is ticking for the criminals of the 2016 Coup. Anarchy all not save them this time.

Yeah, for sure Nancy Pelosi was complicit in organizing an assassination attempt against herself. Sure thing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You mean besides his proven drug use? Yeah, crack heads that put strippers that they impregnated on their company payrolls are guilty. “Unsupported claims”. LOL
That’s a good one. Are your going to repeat the whopper that his laptop was “Russian disinformation”? Even the New York Times finally admitted the laptop is genuine.

This is your second attempt at a deflection in this thread.
Why is that?

 

[metis]

I’m waiting for some serious evidence that overrides his directive to be peaceful in protesting.

Then you're clearly not paying attention to the eyewitnesses that the January 6th Committee has been interviewing.

 

[metis]

If we want to talk about a really guilty person, we should talk about Hunter Biden.

And exactly how is it that you supposedly know this?

Here in the States, we do not constitutionally presume a person is guilty, even though Trump has spouted such nonsense for years now: "Lock her up!".

 

[Nakosis]

I would suggest that you not try this. It would reasonably be considered to be criminal conspiracy. This is how career criminals act: they tell others that a job needs to be done and don't say anything specific.

No, you don't have to give specific instructions. All that you need to do is make it clear what you would like and that it needed to be done.



And that would be up to a jury to determine, because you would likely be charged, especially if you have previously informed your son about how evil the president is and how his every action is deserving of death, etc.



This is precisely the argument of a crime boss: they didn't actually tell anyone to kill their rival. They just said their rival needed to be killed.

I call BS.



That depends a bit on how much you have coached the person who pulls the trigger. If you have previously told them to 'stand by and stand tall', you would very possibly be guilty of criminal conspiracy.



And we need to be responsible for how we groom others to do our dirty work whether or not we directly tell them to do it.

Sounds difficult to prove. Still you are right, perception is more important than truth. You just have to create a believable narrative for the jury.

 

[Nakosis]

Did you see the testimony from the former member of the Oath Keepers who said he marched on Congress because Trump asked them to in his speech he made right beforehand (the one where he said he'd march with them)? And that he finally left hours later because Trump sent out another Tweet (finally) asking them to go home?

Do you mean the one who went in as an under cover journalist and is now writing a book?
No real cross examination in this hearing which is why I think an actual trial would be interesting.