Do You Believe in Free Will?

[Dirty Penguin]

That's because you are projecting that God makes everyone's decision, according to your understanding of Abrehamic faiths, which is not apart of meogi's answer nor the aspects of free will.

If your god creates time and space then how is it not responsible for what happens with its creation?

Your god can't be all knowing if it creates and says its creation can do what it wants but from time to time steps in and says what its creation can and can not do....and if it does the things inwhich it commands it not to do it will be punished by him. What's the point? Surly this god would already know the outcome of all things concerning its creation...before it created time and space and if it does know then punishment is moot..since its creation is doing exactly what he created it to do. To me this god of the bible appears weak in its knowledge and power.

I would also say that the Bible does not advocate your understanding of predetermination. Predetermination does not involve God manipulating a person's decision, it merely describes that God knows how and what a person will choose ahead of time.

I don't remember saying your god changes the minds of men. I merely said...because your god existed before time and space thus is the creator of time and space then everything that happens within time and space is of his doing.

Again, God would not ask people to change their ways if He was the one manipulating their ways.

If he knows they're not going to change then what's the point in asking? If he has to ask or demand his creation to change then he is not as powerful as we we are lead to believe.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

If he knows they're not going to change then what's the point in asking? If he has to ask or demand his creation to change then he is not as powerful as we we are lead to believe.

Well, God didn't create robots. He created us with ability to create and act independently, which are characteristics of love. Remember, not all people are going to remain disobedient and that why he asks and appeals to our better judgment. Just because he allows us to act contrary to his will doesn't mean he isn't all powerful. If you have a problem with that then, fine, that's your God given prerogative. It's my opinion that we choose wisely.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Remember, not all people are going to remain disobedient and that why he asks and appeals to our better judgment.

But that's the point. An ultimate omnipitotent, omniscient....should have no need to appeal to that which it created unless "rumors" of his power has been highly exaggerated. It would seem pointless and futile to command your creation to do something you know it will never do........ but then go to the extreme of systematically killing and/or threatening to kill or damn your creation because it didn't listen to you................assuming you believe in gods...

Just because he allows us to act contrary to his will doesn't mean he isn't all powerful.

Assuming this god exist...it would have to be his will either way...(listen and follow the rules or don't listen and follow the rules). If he is the creator of time and space then everything that exist in time and space is of his will.....unless he has no control over his creation.....then agaian....his characteristics of being omnipotent/omniscient is questionable......

 

[meogi]

If he is the creator of time and space then everything that exist in time and space is of his will.....unless he has no control over his creation.....

That's the point. His KNOWING of what's going on in creation has nothing to do with his control, or lack thereof, over it.

Ultimately, he is responsible for creation (if that's how it happened). But to assume that he couldn't program in a random number generator like free will, is absurd.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How can "free will" and predetermination work together? If man's decisions and actions are predetermined by a god then where is the free will?

I started in this thread with the assertion that there is only limited free will. You are free to choose various paths with predetermined outcomes.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

An omniscient god is helpless, as all future outcomes are known, and all decisions predetermined - i.e. such a being cannot exist.

Blah, blah, blah, yet here I am.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What real use is there of an omniscient god?

None that I can think of.

Yawwwwwn, what was that? Did you say something?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That's the point. His KNOWING of what's going on in creation has nothing to do with his control, or lack thereof, over it.

Ultimately, he is responsible for creation (if that's how it happened). But to assume that he couldn't program in a random number generator like free will, is absurd.

I see.....

I'm thinking that because said god creates time and space and "knows the outcome" of its creation then there is no such thing as free will. The outcome is known so the outcome is predetermined. No matter what you do or don't do....it was and is as it's supposed to be that way because that's how this god "designed it"......So what's the point of stating man will be punished by this god if he does not do what he is commanded?....NONE.....The concept of gods and this concept of "free will"....are man made......(IMO)....

 

[Malkav's Knight]

I do not believe in God, therfore I believe in absolute Free Will. I believe our choices are ours and ours alone. The whole idea of a God and limited Free Will to pick options that it has already laid out just seems like a sick game and would make me ask if they have something else better to do.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I do not believe in God, therfore I believe in absolute Free Will. I believe our choices are ours and ours alone. The whole idea of a God and limited Free Will to pick options that it has already laid out just seems like a sick game and would make me ask if they have something else better to do.

And if you didn't believe in gravity would that mitigate it's effects?

 

[logician]

If you believe in a creator god, then you believe that "intellgence" must be created, but this leads to a paradox - a creator god is intelligent, so it must have been created. This paradox cannot be solved or done away with, the explanation left beling that there is not now nor ever has been a creator god.

 

[Storm]

If you believe in a creator god, then you believe that "intellgence" must be created, but this leads to a paradox - a creator god is intelligent, so it must have been created. This paradox cannot be solved or done away with, the explanation left beling that there is not now nor ever has been a creator god.

That's a common position, but not a necessary one.

 

[Malkav's Knight]

And if you didn't believe in gravity would that mitigate it's effects?

First off, thats irrelevent because I do believe in Gravity. Second, I don't think there is any real basis for a "belief" in Gravity seeing as how Gravity is the word developed to describe and effect. For me, Gravity can be seen and felt. God, for me however, cannot be seen or felt. Feel free to spout and metaphysical/spiritual response you like.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If you believe in a creator god, then you believe that "intellgence" must be created, but this leads to a paradox - a creator god is intelligent, so it must have been created. This paradox cannot be solved or done away with, the explanation left beling that there is not now nor ever has been a creator god.

your premise is flawed. God only duplicates His intellegence into man.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First off, thats irrelevent because I do believe in Gravity. Second, I don't think there is any real basis for a "belief" in Gravity seeing as how Gravity is the word developed to describe and effect. For me, Gravity can be seen and felt. God, for me however, cannot be seen or felt. Feel free to spout and metaphysical/spiritual response you like.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8 KJV

 

[Dirty Penguin]

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8 KJV

Was true back then but not today....We know the direction of the wind in where it comes from and which direction it is going.....

I never really put too much stock in the words in that book....Remember...science in the bible leaves a lot to be desired......

 

[Malkav's Knight]

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8 KJV

I do not believe in God, so quoting the Bible will not sway by belief (or lake thereof). Dirty Penguin said it the best in his response. It leaves alot to be desired. Furthermore, as Dirty touched on, Science has pretty much explained that passage you quoted so again, you will fail in trying to use Religion to counter Science. Try again.

And even furthermore, think about when the Bible was written, and by who. They probably didn't understand meteorology very well and had to exlplain the physics of the world around them. So, that quote was a starting point that when Science developed, further explained, refined, and resolved.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Was true back then but not today....We know the direction of the wind in where it comes from and which direction it is going.....

I never really put too much stock in the words in that book....Remember...science in the bible leaves a lot to be desired......

I suppose I should have made this clearer. The point is that you cnat see the wind but you can see it's effects. The same is true of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jayell]

Was true back then but not today....We know the direction of the wind in where it comes from and which direction it is going.....

Is he serious about this statement? No one has ever known the direction of wind. When it hits us in the face we really can't say from what direction. Storms; hurricanes maybe; and many times they get that wrong.

 

[Malkav's Knight]

Is he serious about this statement? No one has ever known the direction of wind. When it hits us in the face we really can't say from what direction. Storms; hurricanes maybe; and many times they get that wrong.

Its called meteorology, look it up.