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Do You Believe in Free Will?

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
So we have no choices? Do you believe that we are predestined to choose whatever path we take? I never thought so. Every decision is weighed by facts-- if we ignore some facts, we may come up with a different choice than if we don't ignore those facts. Choice can also be weighed by experience- "the last time I did ______, ____ happened so this time I will ______". Why remember experiences at all if they are not going to help you grow? Why have intelligence if we make the same decision anyway? It just doesn't add up to me that we don't have free will.
You are giving my examples to me :D
Choices are made because of other factors. All those other factors are set and not part of choice, or they are set apart of choice. Your history is set. Your experiences are set. Your memory is set. Even the parts you lost. All those factors together are all set. I think that with all those factors combined, there is actually only one choice left even though you have the feeling of having several.
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
Ever hear of the "butterfly effect"? There are a myriad of influences, both external and internal, that affect our decisions , so many, in fact, that free will must exist on a practical level.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
Ever hear of the "butterfly effect"? There are a myriad of influences, both external and internal, that affect our decisions , so many, in fact, that free will must exist on a practical level.
I have heard about the butterfly effect, but for me that's a reason why we do not need free will..? :shrug:

"so many"..
What has the amount of influences has to do with it btw?
 
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sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
We have choices, so there would be free will. Even if the choices are limited.
The outcome of the decisions are also limited which means we have limited free will. Again, if you believe you have free will try overcoming the effect of gravity without mechanical means just because you will it to be.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
  • Every effect requires a cause equal to or greater than the effect
  • If consciousness is greater than but not not separate from matter-energy and the greater is, the greater must be eternally.
So, does free will exist? Yes, but limited inasmuch as we identify with the lesser.

Oh, I can hear the protests now. "These are a priori assumptions." Well, yeah, they are. But let's also be honest: no one is “neutral” or “objective” in the sense of not bringing their presuppositions to the table. Even the idea of reasonable neutrality is an a priori assumption.

Since you've chosen to ignore me, this response isn't for you, but to correct your mistake so that others won't be fooled by this.

Your first assumption wrong, not because it is a priori, but because it is inconsistent with reality.

"Every effect requires a cause equal to or greater than the effect" is wrong because of conservation of mass-energy. Every effect requires a cause equal to the effect, never greater than. This basically says nothing about god whatsoever.

Your second statement is an if statement that doesn't validate; i.e. you need to prove the condition "If consciousness is greater than but not not separate from matter-energy" before it becomes useful. Additionally, since it is based on your first argument it lacks validity.

They spend all of their time and energy denying and ridiculing theism and very little elaborating on their own beliefs with respect to ultimate causation.

I admit freely that I do not have any answers about ultimate causation. I am not scientifically qualified to make even basic educated guesses on the subject.

However, I don't have to know the answer to know what isn't the answer. Theism fails as a theory for ultimate causation because it only adds a step to the problem. If god created the universe, who created god? And if god "just existed", then why can't the universe have "just existed" too? Theism doesn't answer the question of the ultimate cause, it only complicates it.

But refutation is more than denial, and ridicule and mechanistic descriptions. To be consistent, it must demonstrate and explain in a positive sense the comprehensibility, coherence and consistency the motive power in terms of the engine.

Refutation of a theory does not require that one offer a competing theory. I don't need to know to be able to tell that you don't know either. One is better off not knowing than "knowing" incorrect information.

Failing in that, it says nothing.

It says that theism is wrong.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
Please explain the logic of this.

Butterfly effect, part of the chaos theory. Or other naming or whatever..

From wikipedia:
In mathematics, chaos theory describes the behavior of certain dynamical systems – that is, systems whose state evolves with time – that may exhibit dynamics that are highly sensitive to initial conditions (popularly referred to as the butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, which manifests itself as an exponential growth of perturbations in the initial conditions, the behavior of chaotic systems appears to be random. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future dynamics are fully defined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.


The red parts: nothing is random. It appears as if there is choas, but in fact everything is determined.
This automatically also exlpains why it does not matter how many influences are used. As long as you use non-random factors, the "result" will also be non-random.
The only random thing in this entire world appears to be free will. That already sounds strange in the first place, but I also think that all the 'non-random' factors in the world will decide wich option your "free will" will "choose".
 
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Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
The outcome of the decisions are also limited which means we have limited free will. Again, if you believe you have free will try overcoming the effect of gravity without mechanical means just because you will it to be.

I don't think comparing choice to physics is a good comparison. Nevertheless, Biblically speaking, Jesus defied gravity and so did Peter for a while.

Also, Jesus and many others, told people to repent. If free will was/is skewed, then accountability has no recourse.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So far as I can see, if there is free will, there is free will only in a very narrow and limited way. That is, we might be free to inhibit an action. But that's very problematic.

In general, I most certainly do not believe in free will. The notion of free will seems so Middle Ages to me. Very pre-scientific.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I don't think comparing choice to physics is a good comparison. Nevertheless, Biblically speaking, Jesus defied gravity and so did Peter for a while.

Also, Jesus and many others, told people to repent. If free will was/is skewed, then accountability has no recourse.
They did so by the will of God not by man's free will.
 

meogi

Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin said:
How can "free will" and predetermination work together? If man's decisions and actions are predetermined by a god then where is the free will?
Because the man's free will determines what God ultimately knows. Just because God knows what decisions you will make doesn't mean you're not the one making them...
 

logician

Well-Known Member
An omniscient god is helpless, as all future outcomes are known, and all decisions predetermined - i.e. such a being cannot exist.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Yea...I've heard that and it still doesn't make any sense.

That's because you are projecting that God makes everyone's decision, according to your understanding of Abrehamic faiths, which is not apart of meogi's answer nor the aspects of free will. I would also say that the Bible does not advocate your understanding of predetermination. Predetermination does not involve God manipulating a person's decision, it merely describes that God knows how and what a person will choose ahead of time.

Again, God would not ask people to change their ways if He was the one manipulating their ways.
 

meogi

Well-Known Member
logician said:
An omniscient god is helpless, as all future outcomes are known, and all decisions predetermined - i.e. such a being cannot exist.
There's a subtle difference between knowing the future and determining it. That's how such a being could exist.

logician said:
What real use is there of an omniscient god?

None that I can think of.
I would assume judgement; but I agree with you on this one.
 
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