Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

[Polymath257]

The context of Jesus being a mediator is about us coming before God, not about Jesus being the judge of all people.

But Jesus *is* God, right?

 

[Skywalker]

But Jesus *is* God, right?

Jesus, as God and man, is the mediator between people and the Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus combined his divine nature with a human nature that wasn't divine, but that didn't take away from his divinity.

Actually, that is exactly what happened. Jesus was both divine and human, kind of like a hybrid, as He had a two-fold nature. So Jesus was not only a man, He was more than a man, but He was not God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Skywalker]

Actually, that is exactly what happened. Jesus was both divine and human, kind of like a hybrid, as He had a two-fold nature. So Jesus was not only a man, He was more than a man, but He was not God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Jesus was not like Hercules. He had a miraculous birth. Mary was not a wife of the gods like in Greek mythology.

 

[Trailblazer]

But Jesus *is* God, right?

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

A mediator mediates between two separate entities. How could Jesus be God and a mediator between God and men?

 

[Polymath257]

Jesus, as God and man, is the mediator between people and the Father.

In other words, God is a mediator between people and himself.

 

[Trailblazer]

So an all-knowing God needs a mediator, who is himself, to be able to judge?

How does that make sense?

God needs a mediator because humans cannot understand God directly, but God does not need a mediator to judge.

 

[Skywalker]

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

A mediator mediates between two separate entities. How could Jesus be God and a mediator between God and men?

Jesus could be both because of the plurality within the Trinity. People come before the Father in prayer, through Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you saying becoming man would have made Jesus lose his divinity? Jesus spoke the universe into existence by saying let there be light. Why would it be impossible for him to become a man?

Jesus did not become a man, Jesus was a man, a man with a two-fold nature, a human nature and a divine nature.
Jesus did not speak the universe into existence. The universe and God have always existed.

 

[Skywalker]

In other words, God is a mediator between people and himself.

That's possible because of the plurality within the Trinity and the sinful nature of humanity separates them from God.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus did not become a man, Jesus was a man, a man with a two-fold nature, a human nature and a divine nature.
Jesus did not speak the universe into existence. The universe and God have always existed.

How could Jesus as a mere man have a divine nature if God does not share his glory with anyone? The Bible says that all things were created through Jesus.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Here is the question! What do you think?

I was taught by my parents to believe in a generic god. I was scared into becoming a Christian. I no longer believe because there is no evidence of deities.

 

[Skywalker]

I was taught by my parents to believe in a generic god. I was scared into becoming a Christian. I no longer believe because there is no evidence of deities.

Where do you think everything comes from? I believe that Jesus created everything because creation shows the love of God. We have taste buds that help us enjoy food. We all do things we aren't supposed to do and in human laws when people commit crimes there is a penalty. Jesus died for our sins because he is a loving God and he doesn't want us to have to pay the price for our sins. It would be as if a judge took the place of his son who committed a crime. I believe that Jesus is God.

 

[Valjean]

A mind would be required for the same reason that a drawing has a drawer who had a mind.

Where did the laws of nature come from that allow music to exist?

The order of laws requires lawmakers who made those laws. Where did the universe originate from that math is used to describe it?

No. They don't. You're anthropomorphizing.

How can you not see that a complex, orderly thing does not need to be intentionally designed and constructed? Are you so embedded in a magical fantasy world that you can't see clear examples of unguided physics or chemistry?

A mind would be required for the same reason that a drawing has a drawer who had a mind.

Where did the laws of nature come from that allow music to exist?

The order of laws requires lawmakers who made those laws. Where did the universe originate from that math is used to describe it?

No. You're doing it again; projecting human planning and craftsmanship onto a system that operates automatically, without conscious manipulation.

Order and complexity do not require a mind.or planning. The mechanisms by which nature operates are known and can be observed. The natural laws governing the interactions between matter and energy are known and observable.

 

[Skywalker]

No. They don't. You're anthropomorphizing.

How can you not see that a complex, orderly thing does not need to be intentionally designed and constructed? Are you so embedded in a magical fantasy world that you can't see clear examples of unguided physics or chemistry?
No. You're doing it again; projecting human planning and craftsmanship onto a system that operates automatically, without conscious manipulation.

Order and complexity do not require a mind.or planning. The mechanisms by which nature operates are known and can be observed. The natural laws governing the interactions between matter and energy are known and observable.

Complex orderly things like cars and books have intelligent design. Physics and chemistry don't change that. They don't mean that things can work automatically.

Mechanisms, natural laws, matter, and energy do not change that everything with order and complexity has a mind and planning.

 

[Valjean]

The origins of the language we used to describe things is not self existing. It has an order.

True, and it's an artificial, contrived order, whose genesis we know. The naturally ordered, godless arrangement of a snowflake or ping-pong balls poured into a bathtub, on the other hand, happens all by itself.

Everything God creates has order. God is not the author of confusion. Every law has a lawmaker behind it. The Bible says the heaven declares the glory of God. How is that handwaving?

You're just preaching. Declaring something true does not make it true, it isn't evidence that it's true, and why is a biblical quotation more authoritative than a Vedic or Quranic quotation -- or a quotation from The Chronicles of Narnia, for that matter?
Support your assertions with testable, predictive, empirical evidence or the logical thing to do would be to ignore it.

The order of a computer or a car has a creation that requires intelligence to create it.

And it's created by a different mechanism from what creates a tree or mountain. One requires intentional design and manipulation, the other does not.

Why do you think God created musical laws and geometry? I think they are an automatic result of God creating everything with a design and a purpose.

You're preaching again; assuming a god and intentional design with no evidence. If you're going to continue to use theological doctrines as major premises, you need to validate them first.

Where do musical laws and math laws come from, without a self existing God who made everything with order and purpose? It takes more faith to believe that everything just exists than to believe that God created everything.

Argument from personal incredulity. There's no empirical evidence of intentional design or purpose, nor is any needed, as the natural, automatic mechanisms are known, and need no magical hand to guide them.

Magic requires faith, as there's no apparent mechanism involved. But he natural laws just are. they're descriptions of how things just are, and, unlike magic, they're observable.

Creation shows that there is a God of love. We don't need taste buds to eat food but we have them anyway.

Taste, like other senses, has a survival function, and evolved like any other sense.

The order of snowflake comes from nature, which I believe had a creator. A car requires intelligence to create it because those different parts could never come together on their own.

You can watch water freeze into hexagonal shapes in real time, with no hand of God shaping them.
Natural selection, the mechanism that generates adaptive change in a species, will not work in cars. Cars do not reproduce with variation.

Natural selection, in complex organisms, requires reproduction with variation. Those individuals born with the features best suited to their current environment thrive, and out-reproduce their siblings. The gene sequences conferring their particular advantages increase in the population, and the advantageous trait becomes generalized. That's nature, and it happens automatically.
How can any similar mechanism work in cars?

Skywalker, you don't seem to understand science, biology or evidence, yet you hold strong opinions about them. How you managed to get through school without learning this I can't imagine.

 

[Valjean]

There is plenty of evidence. You choose to ignore it.

Examples, please.
Note: Feelings are not evidence. Tradition and familiar ideas aren't evidence. Unsubstantiated, untestable claims in books aren't evidence. Apophenic perception of non-existent patterns, connections and relationships are not evidence.

I don't assume a creator is needed. I see that a creator is needed.

Explain, please.
Just because it's a familiar, even hard-wired idea doesn't make it so. Why can no-one who's really studied or tested the idea see it? Why do they promote alternative explanations, that stand up to testing?

 

[Skywalker]

True, and it's an artificial, contrived order, whose genesis we know. The naturally ordered, godless arrangement of a snowflake or ping-pong balls poured into a bathtub, on the other hand, happens all by itself.
You're just preaching. Declaring something true does not make it true, it isn't evidence that it's true, and why is a biblical quotation more authoritative than a Vedic or Quranic quotation -- or a quotation from The Chronicles of Narnia, for that matter?
Support your assertions with testable, predictive, empirical evidence or the logical thing to do would be to ignore it.
And it's created by a different mechanism from what creates a tree or mountain. One requires intentional design and manipulation, the other does not.
You're preaching again; assuming a god and intentional design with no evidence. If you're going to continue to use theological doctrines as major premises, you need to validate them first.
Argument from personal incredulity. There's no empirical evidence of intentional design or purpose, nor is any needed, as the natural, automatic mechanisms are known, and need no magical hand to guide them.

Magic requires faith, as there's no apparent mechanism involved. But he natural laws just are. they're descriptions of how things just are, and, unlike magic, they're observable.
Taste, like other senses, has a survival function, and evolved like any other sense.
You can watch water freeze into hexagonal shapes in real time, with no hand of God shaping them.
Natural selection, the mechanism that generates adaptive change in a species, will not work in cars. Cars do not reproduce with variation.

Natural selection, in complex organisms, requires reproduction with variation. Those individuals born with the features best suited to their current environment thrive, and out-reproduce their siblings. The gene sequences conferring their particular advantages increase in the population, and the advantageous trait becomes generalized. That's nature, and it happens automatically.
How can any similar mechanism work in cars?

Skywalker, you don't seem to understand science, biology or evidence, yet you hold strong opinions about them. How you managed to get through school without learning this I can't imagine.

The basis of language is in the pose of sounds. It's not artificial or contrived.

Regarding God being a lawmaker, unlike other beliefs,. Christianity is built on historical events and can therefore either be proven or falsified by historical investigation.

 

[Polymath257]

The basis of language is in the pose of sounds. It's not artificial or contrived.

Let me guess. You don't know any other languages, do you?

Yes, it is arbitrary, contrived, and culturally determined. There is nothing in the laws of the universe that dictate any one language.

Ever hear of click languages?

 

[Skywalker]

True, and it's an artificial, contrived order, whose genesis we know. The naturally ordered, godless arrangement of a snowflake or ping-pong balls poured into a bathtub, on the other hand, happens all by itself.
You're just preaching. Declaring something true does not make it true, it isn't evidence that it's true, and why is a biblical quotation more authoritative than a Vedic or Quranic quotation -- or a quotation from The Chronicles of Narnia, for that matter?
Support your assertions with testable, predictive, empirical evidence or the logical thing to do would be to ignore it.
And it's created by a different mechanism from what creates a tree or mountain. One requires intentional design and manipulation, the other does not.
You're preaching again; assuming a god and intentional design with no evidence. If you're going to continue to use theological doctrines as major premises, you need to validate them first.
Argument from personal incredulity. There's no empirical evidence of intentional design or purpose, nor is any needed, as the natural, automatic mechanisms are known, and need no magical hand to guide them.

Magic requires faith, as there's no apparent mechanism involved. But he natural laws just are. they're descriptions of how things just are, and, unlike magic, they're observable.
Taste, like other senses, has a survival function, and evolved like any other sense.
You can watch water freeze into hexagonal shapes in real time, with no hand of God shaping them.
Natural selection, the mechanism that generates adaptive change in a species, will not work in cars. Cars do not reproduce with variation.

Natural selection, in complex organisms, requires reproduction with variation. Those individuals born with the features best suited to their current environment thrive, and out-reproduce their siblings. The gene sequences conferring their particular advantages increase in the population, and the advantageous trait becomes generalized. That's nature, and it happens automatically.
How can any similar mechanism work in cars?

Skywalker, you don't seem to understand science, biology or evidence, yet you hold strong opinions about them. How you managed to get through school without learning this I can't imagine.

Why wouldn't a tree or a mountain require intentional design and manipulation?

There is nothing that you see in nature that you can say has no design and purpose, other than things like marijuana that exist because of original sin. Even that has an order and a purpose in terms of God cursing the earth we have dominion over as a consequence for us not following God's laws.

Who created the laws behind natural automatic mechanisms?

A singularity could not create natural laws.

The thousands of taste buds that we have have no survival function.

The origin of that water was not from a singularity.

Natural selection leads to microevolution, not changes of kinds.