• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That's not true. It's creationist propaganda.
Most mutations are neutral, they have no obvious effect. Some are harmful, and natural selection suppresses their proliferation. Some are clearly beneficial. I can cite examples if you're skeptical.
Huh?
First off, "kind" is a vague, creationist term. Contemporary evolution of new species has been observed.
Observed Instances of Speciation Scroll to 5.0 for observed examples.

Evidence. Browse, if you dare:29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent
[/QUOTE]

Natural selection doesn't make most mutations beneficial. Beneficial mutations real or imaginary part 1 - creation.com

Randomly occurring beneficial mutations lie at the heart of Darwinian evolution. Without them there is no mechanism by which a single originating cell could have diversified into the myriad species that we see on Earth and in the fossil record today. But according to recent reports on the human genome, mutations are being classified into just two categories—‘deleterious’ and ‘functional’. Beneficial mutations are not being catalogued. This surprising result turns out to be in accord with the history of the beneficial mutation concept. The theory was originally developed by R.A. Fisher in his 1930 book The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection in an attempt to salvage Darwinism because the only evidence he had was for deleterious mutations. Until recently genetic theorists have perpetuated his practice. Beneficial mutations are simply assumed to exist because Darwinian theory demands that they exist. The first experiments to characterize the properties of beneficial mutations were published in 2011 and the result contradicted Fisher’s theory. This outcome is analyzed in part 2 of this article.

Having been a student of biology for more than 50 years I have never had a problem with the concept of beneficial mutations. I was therefore shocked to discover in recent reports on the human genome that beneficial mutations have not been found. Only ‘deleterious’ and ‘functional’ mutations have been documented. On doing some research into the ways that genetic theorists have treated beneficial mutations, and the data they have worked from, I was even more shocked to discover that they have had no data to work from either.

Today’s educated atheists grew up believing evolution as fact, the media made an industry out of it, and (almost) everybody believed it.
The theory of beneficial mutations was originally developed by English statistician R.A. Fisher, the founding father of neo-Darwinism, in his 1930 book The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection.The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection, Oxford University Press, London, 1930." style="box-sizing: inherit; color: rgb(34, 139, 246); background-color: transparent; border-bottom: none; margin-bottom: 4px; cursor: pointer;">1 But he had only deleterious mutations to work with and so he came up with his theory of beneficial mutations out of a belief that they must exist. Genetic theorists have followed his example ever since. The stranglehold that neo-Darwinian evolution has achieved over academia and the media today was thus built upon nothing more than imagination and evolutionary necessity.

Darwin’s Origin of Species started the ball rolling, but while it was widely praised it met fierce opposition from professional scientists.Darwin And His Critics: The Reception of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution by the Scientific Community, University of Chicago Press, 1973." style="box-sizing: inherit; color: rgb(34, 139, 246); background-color: transparent; border-bottom: none; margin-bottom: 4px; cursor: pointer;">2 By the beginning of the 20th century the discovery of Mendelian genes and the fact that they could mutate had largely pushed Darwin’s ideas aside. By the end of the 1920s the science of genetics and the discovery that known mutations were all deleterious posed a seemingly fatal challenge to Darwinism. But in 1930 a new revolution began. Fisher published his book and he and fellow English mathematician J.B.S. Haldane, together with American geneticist Sewall Wright, then compiled during the 1930s and 1940s a body of mathematics that became known as the ‘Modern Synthesis’, or neo-Darwinian theory.

This body of theory remained largely academic until a convergence of three further events took place in 1953. Watson and Crick published the double-helix structure of DNA, giving biology its first ever grounding in the hard physical sciences. Bernard Kettlewell, a Research Fellow at Oxford University, began experiments on industrial melanism in the peppered moth. These produced the first ever example of natural selection in the wild3 and it became textbook orthodoxy as ‘evolution in action’. And American geochemist Clair Patterson announced at a conference what was to become a ‘universal constant’ in the evolutionary worldview—the 4.55-billion-year ‘age’ of the earth.

Mutations became synonymous with nucleotide changes in DNA. Natural selection re-emerged as all-conquering hero, promoting beneficial mutations, and removing deleterious ones. And the official oodles of time allowed chance to magically transform anything into anything else. Today’s educated atheists grew up believing evolution as fact, the media made an industry out of it, and (almost) everybody believed it. But at the IUPS Congress in Birmingham in July 2013, the President, Oxford University Emeritus Professor Denis Noble, announced that “all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis … have been disproven”.Exp Physiol. 98(8):1235–1243, 2013 | doi:10.1113/expphysiol.2012.071134." style="box-sizing: inherit; color: rgb(34, 139, 246); background-color: transparent; border-bottom: none; margin-bottom: 4px; cursor: pointer;">4

Darwin’s desire to ‘get something for nothing’ lies at the heart of the beneficial mutation concept and also at the heart of the world’s embrace of evolution.
Beneficial mutations
Despite Noble’s critique (and those of others e.g. ReMine,The Biotic Message: Evolution vs Message Theory, St Paul Science, St Paul, MN, 1993." style="box-sizing: inherit; color: rgb(34, 139, 246); background-color: transparent; border-bottom: none; margin-bottom: 4px; cursor: pointer;">5 SanfordGenetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome, 3rd edn, FMS Publications, New York, 2008." style="box-sizing: inherit; color: rgb(34, 139, 246); background-color: transparent; border-bottom: none; margin-bottom: 4px; cursor: pointer;">6) the concept of the beneficial mutation remains the centrepiece of evolutionary thinking. The underlying idea has been around since Darwin’s time. On p. 63 of the final 1876 edition of The Origin, Darwin said this:

“Natural Selection … implies only the preservation of such variations as arise and are beneficial to the being under its conditions of life.”
No-one could object to that. Darwin defined what he meant by ‘variation’ in chapter 2 of The Origin as things that could be observed by a careful study of many individuals of the varieties, species, and genera of interest. In other words, natural selection worked on those ‘variations’ that were already present if one looked closely and systematically enough. But when Mendel’s particulate theory of inheritance overtook Darwin’s blending theory of inheritance a dramatic change took place in the meaning of the word ‘variation’. Mendel’s particles (genes) were found to be able to mutate—to change spontaneously into something that had not existed previously. In the new era of genetics a ‘variation’ was no longer necessarily something that already existed and could be observed by a careful scientist. Mutations gave evolutionists the first solid evidence that something new could arise which had not existed previously. Darwin’s definition of ‘variation’ was no longer in charge!

When genetics came of age in 1953 in DNA’s double helix, with its interchangeable information-carrying bases, another change to the meaning of ‘variation’ took place. Natural variations of Darwin’s kind were already known to be produced during the crossing-over stage of meiosis. But when it was discovered that ‘random errors’ could occur in DNA copying of individual nucleotides these became the factories for the ‘something new that had not existed previously’. The neo-Darwinian mantra of ‘mutations and natural selection’ had now to depend entirely upon random copying errors to produce the new information that microbes-to-mankind evolution required. The ‘beneficial mutation’ of the early geneticists had turned into a ‘beneficial’ random DNA copying error.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You're comparing apples and air conditioners. Hybrids are almost never part of any evolutionary line. They're not the usual drivers of evolution. They're not responsible for all the transitional fossils paleontologists dig up.

They're flukes; outliers. Their form is due to reproductive variation between two different species or subspecies, not the normal, conspecific variation that drives major evolutionary lines.
Any speciation in a sustained line will change over time. As long as there's genetic mutation, reproductive variation and environmental change, organisms will adapt.

But they demonstrate that there is a limit on a species becoming another one because they are what happens when there is enough change within the DNA of descendants to create a new species. They are also an example of mutations not being favorable.

Plants that changed into new species didn't do so spontaneously, it was genetic engineering.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
...if by "kind" you mean "clade".

Remember how I explained to you that "kind" is a meaningless term in biology and taxonomy?
And also how I told you that if you don't mean "clade" by that word, that you're going to have to define what you DO mean by the word?

Kinds means at kingdom and domain levels.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IC is pseudo scientific nonsense of which the only purpose is religious creationist propaganda.
In context of biology, it's been thoroughly debunked (almost immediately after the cdesign proponentsists published it in their own propaganda channels)



Still stubbornly refusing to correct your false views on what an "intermediate" is in context of actual evolutionary biology ha?



yeah, a "fish" with limbs and a neck. :rolleyes:

The flagellum would have to exist in all of its parts to function.

An intermediate is what existed between the first dna that developed, and humans.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's an animal with anatomical feature of both it's fish ancestors as well as its tetrapod progeny.
It has all the signs of an intermediate.

What evolutionary biologists mean by "intermediate" anyway - which doesn't seem to be the same thing that you insist it to mean. Just another strawman on your part. What's one more, right?

An intermediate is anything that looks in between two different animals, one that exists now, and their extinct ancestor, or even what animal or kingdom existed in between the original DNA and that extinct ancestor.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
False.

Both on the account of "it looks like" as well on the account of "extinct and extant".

Instead, it's about traits of ancestors and progeny. Neither of which must be extinct or extant.

But hey, strawman away, strawmanner.
It's obvious that it's the only way you can actually argue against modern biology - by misrepresenting it and then attack that misrepresentation.


As I told you before, even if you win that "argument", all you would have accomplished is refuting a misrepresentation of biology. Actually biology would remain unchallenged.

The original DNA that evolutionists teach people descend from, probably doesn't exist at this point. An intermediate would be what existed in between that and humans.

There can be intermediates involving extinct organisms (the intermediate of two extinct animals believed to be ancestors of modern animals) and extant organisms.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Law of monophy: species shall not outgrow their ancestry.

So indeed, members of family X, will not be producing off-spring belonging to family Y. If that were to occur, evolution would be disproven.

Wouldn't that prove evolution, because evolution means that our ancestors were a different kingdom than us? According to evolution people descend from DNA that developed on its own in nature. Macroevolution by definition means family X over time evolved into family Y, that exists today.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Nothing involves a change in those things in evolution.

Law of monophy: species shall not outgrow their ancestry.

If members of family X produce off-spring belonging to family Y, evolution would be disproven.


Get it into that stubborn religious head of yours.

I believe that the law of monopoly disproves evolution.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
+
this argument can be turned against any claim.
Gravitation?
But there may be a possibilty neither of us has thought of yet, too.
It's a question of evidence, I think.
So, I stay with my opinion: the God proposition is the best explanation for the perceived beauty, no logical flaws in there, I think.

And what are the 'logical flaws' in suggesting that there's a chemical in the air? The logical flaw is in assigning MORE weight to the god proposition, simply because that's what you'd like to believe.

Which is why I remain an atheist. I have yet to be presented with sufficient evidence to warrant belief in your god proposition. The simple fact that human's perceive beauty in nature falls woefully short.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Macroevolution might occur within species but not at kingdom or domain levels. It doesn't occur within order, classes, family, phyla.
Macroevolution is by definition at the species level and above. We have observed speciation. The fact that tigers and lions can only have offspring that are almost always sterile is what occurs as speciation occurs.

Now do you have any evidence that supports your other claim? We know that you do not have any evidence. You might as well claim that an invisible Pink Unicorn did it when you have no evidence. We do have mountains of evidence for evolution and creationists cannot seem to find any that runs contrary to the science.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
+
this argument can be turned against any claim.
Gravitation?
But there may be a possibilty neither of us has thought of yet, too.
It's a question of evidence, I think.
So, I stay with my opinion: the God proposition is the best explanation for the perceived beauty, no logical flaws in there, I think.

It would help you quite a bit if you understood what is and what is not evidence. There is evidence for evolution. There is evidence for gravity. There is no evidence for your beliefs. For scientific debates the standard is scientific evidence. Since you do not seem to understand the concept here it is:


Scientific evidence is evidence that serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpretable in accordance with scientific method.

Scientific evidence - Wikipedia.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
And what are the 'logical flaws' in suggesting that there's a chemical in the air? The logical flaw is in assigning MORE weight to the god proposition, simply because that's what you'd like to believe.
ah the chemical.
I did not take it into consideration.

A chemical that leads people to think that there are beautiful landscapes. As a hypothesis. And I am not supposed to think that the God proposition is more likely to cut it than that chemical. The number of assumptions necessary involved in this explanation model: 1.
as was for the God proposition.

Ok. You're a gifted thinker. Well done. You know very well what evidence is.

Now, beauty was just one phenomenon.
Actually, there are more, in my opinion, that all point to God as a loving being:
Good scent, for instance.
You walk into the forest after the rain... and it smells good.
You taste the air at the sea side... it is good.

Same game, in my opinion.

One assumption for the loving force, many for evolution.... ah I forgot: the other chemical in the air, the one for perceiving good scent.
However this would be two assumptions now: the chemical accounts for a) perception of beauty and b) the perception of a good smell.

So, in my opinion, we need to apply the principle of parsimony again.
But I appreciate chatting with you, lets see what comes next.... I appreciate the fact that you're willing to follow my line of thought. Thank you very much.
 
Last edited:

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Now, beauty was just one phenomenon.
Actually, there are more, in my opinion, that all point to God as a loving being:
Good scent, for instance.
You walk into the forest after the rain... and it smells good.
You taste the air at the sea side... it is good.

I see you're still using blatant double standards. I could just list all the nasty, horrible, and ugly things in life and say they're evidence for an evil, or at least a capricious god. Of course it would be just a vacuous as your claims because none of the 'supernatural' stories make any predictions we can test and so are nothing but unfalsifiable just-so stories. Exactly on the intellectual level of "Thor getting angry" was an explanation for thunder before we understood the actual, physical explanation.

You can't say that a simple unknown is evidence for anything - except that human understanding is incomplete.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wouldn't that prove evolution, because evolution means that our ancestors were a different kingdom than us? According to evolution people descend from DNA that developed on its own in nature. Macroevolution by definition means family X over time evolved into family Y, that exists today.
You need to study cladistics.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
ah the chemical.
I did not take it into consideration.

A chemical that leads people to think that there are beautiful landscapes. As a hypothesis. And I am not supposed to think that the God proposition is more likely to cut it than that chemical. The number of assumptions necessary involved in this explanation model: 1.
as was for the God proposition.

It is a far more reasonable hypothesis. Here's why. We know that chemicals exist. They can be tested in numerous ways. We know that some chemicals have an effect on the thinking process. Again, testable verifiable and even more important refutable.

We do not know that a god exists to these same standards. We do not even know if a god is possible. That makes the chemical explanation far superior to yours.

Ok. You're a gifted thinker. Well done. You know very well what evidence is.

Now, beauty was just one phenomenon.
Actually, there are more, in my opinion, that all point to God as a loving being:
Good scent, for instance.
You walk into the forest after the rain... and it smells good.
You taste the air at the sea side... it is good.

Same game, in my opinion.

One assumption for the loving force, many for evolution.... ah I forgot: the other chemical in the air, the one for perceiving good scent.
However this would be two assumptions now: the chemical accounts for a) perception of beauty and b) the perception of a good smell.

So, in my opinion, we need to apply the principle of parsimony again.
But I appreciate chatting with you, lets see what comes next.... I appreciate the fact that you're willing to follow my line of thought. Thank you very much.

And like it or not evolution is a better explanation for all of those than your god idea.

The problem with your test is that it is a crap test that does not prove anything. A proper test can refute an idea if it is wrong. Why didn't you propose a proper test? You only confirm the claim that you have no reliable evidence for your god.
 
Top