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Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
":A relationship with God" appears to be wishful thinking. Muslims claims the same thing. So do Hindus. How would you test your beliefs? A test that only confirms at best is not worth anything. A proper test could possibly refute your beliefs. Testing is important if one wants to claim that one's beliefs are rational.
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Allah or Vishnu never loved their creation so much that they would die for their sins.
 
Valjean

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
The only one talking about Nostradamus is you. Why even bring him up?
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Because of the parallels with Christian apologists. Both cite fulfilled prophecies as evidence.
The fulfilled prophecies, though, are questionable; they see what they want to see.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Valjean said:
Because of the parallels with Christian apologists. Both cite fulfilled prophecies as evidence.
The fulfilled prophecies, though, are questionable; they see what they want to see.
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And they ignore the much more obvious failed prophecies. The few "fulfilled" ones are on the same order as the prophecies of Nostradamus, overly vague and poetic so they can be interpreted as being fulfilled more than once. In fact that is the cause of some new sects forming.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
And they ignore the much more obvious failed prophecies. The few "fulfilled" ones are on the same order as the prophecies of Nostradamus, overly vague and poetic so they can be interpreted as being fulfilled more than once. In fact that is the cause of some new sects forming.
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Christianity became the church after it spread to gentiles. Before that it was in the synagogues.


Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish practices and identity
The Book of Acts reports that the early followers continued daily Temple attendance and traditional Jewish home prayer. Other passages in the New Testament gospels reflect a similar observance of traditional Jewish piety such as fasting, reverence for the Torah and observance of Jewish holy days.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Valjean said:
Because of the parallels with Christian apologists. Both cite fulfilled prophecies as evidence.
The fulfilled prophecies, though, are questionable; they see what they want to see.
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The Jewish prophecies about the Messianic are cryptic too. It's not clear if there are two Messiahs or the Messiah would fulfill all the prophecies in one coming.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
James converted after he saw the risen Jesus The priestly authorities put him to death. He didn'r recant, even though he could have.
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Once again, how do you know that? You do not seem to have any evidence for it.

I need to remind you that the Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Once again, how do you know that? You do not seem to have any evidence for it.

I need to remind you that the Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence.
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The Conversion of the Skeptic James

The Bible says that the brothers of Jesus didn't believe that he was the Messiah and James not believing was a historical fact.

James Was Skeptical Toward Jesus
James was Jesus’ half-brother. And (like Saul of Tarsus) James did not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Look at what John tells us about Jesus’ brothers:

Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
(John 7:3-5)

We are notified here and elsewhere (Mark 3:21) that Jesus’ brothers did not believe he was the messiah. This is not necessarily surprising. Just think about it: What would it take for you to believe that your own brother was a supernaturally empowered leader sent from God? Probably a heck of a lot. And James’ skepticism toward Jesus would have been further confirmed by the crucifixion. As far as James was concerned, Jesus’ execution on the cross simply proved that he was a messianic pretender.

Notice that we have two independent sources about Jesus’ brothers (John and Mark) rejecting his messianic claims. That is strong evidence by historical standards. But that is not all. It is embarrassing evidence. It is really hard to believe that the early church would have fabricated these details about Jesus’ brothers not believing in him. These details would (especially in the first century) diminish the credibility of Jesus and the church. These details were an embarrassment to Christianity. Thus, James’ lack of belief is almost certainly a historical fact.

James, the True Believer
Fast forward to a few years later. We find that something has changed. James is now a strong believer in Jesus. In fact, Paul tells us that he was even a leader in the church, ranked with the apostles:

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles — only James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

James obviously experienced some kind of radical transformation in his attitude toward Jesus. What caused this transformation? 1 Corinthians 15:7 tells us. Jesus appeared to James after his resurrection. That is, James had his own private visitation from Jesus. I’ll bet that was a very interesting conversation!

Whatever transpired between James and his resurrected brother, it had a profound effect on him. This is confirmed by the fact that several historical documents outside of the Bible mention James, not just as a leader of the church, but as willingly dying for Jesus. Historical writings by Josephus, Hegesippus, and Clement of Alexandria all tell us that James was killed by being thrown down from the pinnacle of the temple, and then stoned and clubbed until he died.1

For these reasons, even an agnostic like Gerd Ludemann (an expert in New Testament scholarship) says it is historically “certain” that James had an experience in which Jesus appeared to him.2

But if this is a historical certainty it makes the skeptic’s case downright ridiculous. Are we supposed to believe that James suddenly developed psychological problems too, along with Saul of Tarsus? That would be a massively improbable coincidence. And it makes the skeptic’s case even more ad hoc than it already was.

All told, it takes more faith to believe in the skeptic’s theories (theories that try to explain away the evidence) than to simply believe what the Bible tells us: Jesus rose from the dead.
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T

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
QuestioningMind said:
Since the 'evidence' for your loving being is the EXACT same as the evidence for my chemical,
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I stay with my opinion, that the principle of parsimony can be applied here. See below.

QuestioningMind said:
Are you aware that certain medications (chemicals) can have something called 'side effects'? For instance my wife takes a chemical that helps with a heart condition she has. That is to say, one of the ways this chemical affects her is that it helps keep her arteries free of buildup. However, while this chemicals helps to clear her arteries, it ALSO affects her in other ways... like the fact that it can cause her fingers and toes to feel numb. This is an example of a single chemical affecting the human body in MORE than just one way.
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Yes, a chemical can affect the human being in two differen ways.
Or not.
There is no intrinsic logic and no evidence whatsoever for backing up a statement saying that
chemicals, just for being chemical substances, affect the body in more than one beneficial way, in general.
You left out the point of beneficial effects, btw. Numbness is not beneficial.
Beneficial side effects can happen. Or not.

When it comes to love, in contrast, the evidence for loving couples show that they can and generally do love each other in different ways, and that they in fact do not limit themselves to one way only.
QuestioningMind said:
But clearly the principle of parsimony does NOT apply, since BOTH your loving force AND my proposed chemical CAN affect the human body in more than one way.
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as said above: while you might argue that chemicals can affect the human body differently.... you did not provide the evidence that chemicalls in general actually do affect the human body in more than one way.
It's a hidden assumtion, that you undertake.
 
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