Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

[Skywalker]

Wrong again. Of the apostles it appears that only Peter died. Paul was not an apostle.

Once again, you used a dishonest source. Try to use real history.

EDIT: Oops, add James of Zebadee. He was one of the twelve. But the only record of both Paul and Peter are biblical ones, not historic ones:

Apostles - Wikipedia.

Osiris was not just or gracious like Jesus was. Osiris didn't come to save us and teach us how to live. The Evidence is Plain: Thoughts and Musings on Christianity : The Dying and Rising God: Jesus or Osiris?

Kingdom Come: The Reign of a God
After the creation of man—who were born from Atum’s tears in Egyptian mythology—Osiris became the ruler of Egypt, a literal pharaoh, with his sister-queen, Isis. According to the myth, Osiris was a just and gracious ruler who gave knowledge of agriculture to mankind. He also brought with him laws so that man could follow Ma’at through tending the earth and worshiping the gods.
That said, there does not appear to be any examples given of how Osiris was just or gracious aside from the statement that he simply was.
Christ, too was a literal king, as far as his human lineage is concerned. Though he never assumed the throne of Israel during his first coming, the genealogies of Christ found in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 make it clear that he was a blood descendant of King David on both his mother’s side (Luke) and his surrogate father’s side (Matthew). Furthermore, given Jesus’ Godhood, he was also king of the universe—the creator and sustainer of life. (Psalm 36:9, 54:4, John 1:4)
Likewise, Jesus is just and gracious, not to mention righteous. He showed compassion to those who had none. (Matthew 9:35-36, 20:29-34) He healed those who could not heal themselves. (Mark 1:40-42, Luke 13:10-17) He ate with sinners (Mark 2:13-17, Luke 19:1-10) and condemned self-righteousness and hypocrisy. (Matthew 23, John 8:1-11)
Few would argue that the teachings of Jesus are anything less than morally excellent, and that his words hold those who follow them to a high standard of accountability. The main reason for this is that when Jesus taught he used the authority of the scriptures to address and reaffirm the core purpose and intent behind the Law of Moses—to Love God and to love each other. (Matthew 22:34-40, Galatians 5:13-14, Leviticus 19:18) When compared to the words of contemporary pharisaic teachers who claimed Jewish tradition as their source of authority and taught rabbinicalinterpretations of the scriptures rather than the scriptures themselves, it is no wonder that the people were amazed by Jesus' authoritative teachings. (Matthew 5-7, Matthew 11:28-30, Mark 1:22)
Jesus' kingdom also differs greatly from the kingdom of Osiris in that where Osiris' kingdom is depicted as being a physical kingdom in this world, the kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom found in the hearts of those who believe. (Luke 17:20-21) If Jesus' kingdom were a physical kingdom, then his followers would have fought to overthrow Rome and to save him from death when he was arrested. (John 18:33-40)
It is for this reason that the kingdom of God can never be overcome. (Psalm 145:13, Daniel 7:13-14)

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can't compare the two situations because the apostles never spread their faith by the sword. Jesus said that those who live by the sword die by the sword. Matthew 26, 26:52

Early Christianity was not spread by the sword. After 400 CE it was a different story. And Muslims of course try to claim that their beliefs were not spread by the sword. Both Christianity and Islam were largely spread by warfare.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Osiris was not just or gracious like Jesus was. Osiris didn't come to save us and teach us how to live. The Evidence is Plain: Thoughts and Musings on Christianity : The Dying and Rising God: Jesus or Osiris?

So what? Osiris did not die for a self contradicting reason like Jesus did either. All that has been pointed out is that many parts of the Jesus myth were likely borrowed from other religions. No one has claimed that they copied those religions word for word.

 

[Skywalker]

Early Christianity was not spread by the sword. After 400 CE it was a different story. And Muslims of course try to claim that their beliefs were not spread by the sword. Both Christianity and Islam were largely spread by warfare.

The Christians who spread Christianity by the sword went against the teachings of Christ and did it for political reasons.

Christians have apologized for offenses like the Crusades that went against what Christ taught. When A Christian does things like that they go against their faith and there is nothing in what Jesus said that justifies it. Muslim extremists have used the teachings of Mohammad to justify their actions.

 

[Skywalker]

So what? Osiris did not die for a self contradicting reason like Jesus did either. All that has been pointed out is that many parts of the Jesus myth were likely borrowed from other religions. No one has claimed that they copied those religions word for word.

How did Jesus die for a self contradictory reason? I believe Jesus died for our sins, because God is love but God is also just. He reconciled that justice by dying for our sins. A judge who lets a criminal go would not be a just judge.

 

[Skywalker]

So what? Osiris did not die for a self contradicting reason like Jesus did either. All that has been pointed out is that many parts of the Jesus myth were likely borrowed from other religions. No one has claimed that they copied those religions word for word.

The death of Osiris cannot be compared to Jesus dying for our sins. I believe that the comparison itself is blasphemous. The Evidence is Plain: Thoughts and Musings on Christianity : The Dying and Rising God: Jesus or Osiris?

Murder: The Death of a God
Just as the accounts of creation vary greatly in Egyptian mythology, so to do the accounts of events leading up to and culminating in Osiris’ death. In one version of the story, Osiris kicked his brother Set, the god of evil. Another myth states that Osiris had sex with Set’s consort, their sister, Nephthys—who may or may not have seduced Osiris by disguising herself as his sister-queen, Isis. While yet another version of the story says thatSet simply became jealous of Osiris’ kingdom and all the good he had brought to mankind.
Accounts vary too as to the exact means by which Set murdered Osiris. Some say he took on the form of a bull and trampled him to death while others attest that he killed him as a crocodile. The most common version of the myth, however, involves trickery and an elaborate coffin.
In this version of the story, Set created a lavishly decorated chest (coffin) made to his brother’s exact measurements. When the chest was finished, Set held a banquet and offered to give the chest as a gift to whoever best fit inside it. As one would expect, Osiris fit perfectly, and once he was inside, Set closed the chest and threw it into the Nile. The chest floated down river until it got lodged in a tree which then grew up around and encased the chest with Osiris still inside. There, encased in the tree, Osiris eventually died.
Unlike Osiris who was murdered due to his own foolishness and sexual indiscretion, Jesus gave his life up voluntarily for the forgiveness of sins. (John 10:18)

Jesus was not murdered. Nor was he tricked. Even when he was being arrested and tried, Jesus was still in complete control of the situation. (Matthew 26:47-54, John 19:6-11)

 

[Skywalker]

So what? Osiris did not die for a self contradicting reason like Jesus did either. All that has been pointed out is that many parts of the Jesus myth were likely borrowed from other religions. No one has claimed that they copied those religions word for word.

Jesus didn't die to save us from a law that he made. That's like saying a judge is unjust for enforcing laws that they set precedent on. Legal precedent - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Skywalker]

So what? Osiris did not die for a self contradicting reason like Jesus did either. All that has been pointed out is that many parts of the Jesus myth were likely borrowed from other religions. No one has claimed that they copied those religions word for word.

If you dont believe me now, believe me when millions of people disappear and there is a charismatic world leader who will seem to bring peace at first but then there will be persecution of people who believe in Jesus. You can still come to God and even though it will be harder and there will be persecution, it will be worth not selling your soul. Revelation says that nobody can buy or sell without the mark of the beast, but please dont take it. It will be hell at the end of times because all of the persecution. It will be like the Christians in Roman times.

. Please give this this serious thought, because if I'm wrong, it doesn't make a difference in terms of what I have to lose.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Christians who spread Christianity by the sword went against the teachings of Christ and did it for political reasons.

Christians have apologized for offenses like the Crusades that went against what Christ taught. When A Christian does things like that they go against their faith and there is nothing in what Jesus said that justifies it. Muslim extremists have used the teachings of Mohammad to justify their actions.

Even before the crusades. Changes in religion are usually done through political force. That was largely how Christianity spread to Europe and from there to the rest of the world. It began soon after the Roman emperor became a Christian. Don't believe the stories that apologists tell you. They lie far more often than they tell the truth:

Interview — Converting By the Sword | Christian History Magazine

By the way, the above is a rare somewhat honest Christian source.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus didn't die to save us from a law that he made. That's like saying a judge is unjust for enforcing laws that they set precedent on. Legal precedent - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Make up your mind. Earlier you claimed that Jesus was God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you dont believe me now, believe me when millions of people disappear and there is a charismatic world leader who will seem to bring peace at first but then there will be persecution of people who believe in Jesus. You can still come to God and even though it will be harder and there will be persecution, it will be worth not selling your soul. Revelation says that nobody can buy or sell without the mark of the beast, but please dont take it. It will be hell at the end of times because all of the persecution. It will be like the Christians in Roman times.

. Please give this this serious thought, because if I'm wrong, it doesn't make a difference in terms of what I have to lose.

LOL!! The end of the world has been predicted to be soon every since Jesus's death. You have forgotten his worst failed prophesy again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How did Jesus die for a self contradictory reason? I believe Jesus died for our sins, because God is love but God is also just. He reconciled that justice by dying for our sins. A judge who lets a criminal go would not be a just judge.

You just contradicted yourself again. If God was just he would not punish people for false crimes. And the punishment would meet the level of the crimes and no more. Your version of God is evil and unjust. The judge example fails terribly. Nor can a judge allow another to serve the sentence of another if he is a just. Contradictions upon contradictions. You just believe it because you were brought up to believe it. Not because it is logical. Your version of God fails all sorts of logical tests.

 

[thomas t]

you are starting off with a confirmation bias

confirmation bias is ok, so long as the evidence presented is valid, I think. Evidence counts, I think.
Not the method of arriving at it.
The evidence itself is independent of the method of how it was achieved, i think.
Great inventions often were a byproduct of some other process, for instance X-Ray.
They wantd to explore something else, initially, if I'm well informed.

You automatically accept that our perception of beauty in nature is evidence for this loving force and discount any other possible explanation.

... if the principle of parsimony applies, yes I do.

And there's ALSO no reason to assume that some 'loving force' just for being a 'loving force' can and does act on two different parts of the body in two different ways triggering two different events. It's POSSIBLE, however it's one assumption plus.

Lets put it the other way round:
there is no reason to assume that the love should be restricted to acting in one particular way only.
In contrast, chemicals are often restricted to affect in one part of the body and not the other, as far as I know. Should I present an example?

There's nothing you can claim about your unsubstantiated loving force that I can't claim about my unsubstantiated chemical.

Chemicals are known for being active on particular parts of the body only, as far as I know.

At least in the case of my chemical hypothesis we have clear evidence that chemicals do exist that that they are capable of affecting our body and mind in various ways.

As far as I know, there is no evidence at all that chemicals that affect our body inone way, are likely to do so in another way, too.
If you claim otherwise, present the evidence please.

In contrast, we know that loving persons who show their love in one way... are likely to show it in another, too.
This is at least the way I see things here.

Long story short, there is a difference between chemicals and persons in the way they are reported to act.
Initially, I wrote "higher force"... so let's take "person" in the broadest sense, please.,

It's a good discussion I think, thank you.

 

[Skywalker]

LOL!! The end of the world has been predicted to be soon every since Jesus's death. You have forgotten his worst failed prophesy again.

A false teachings about something doesn't mean that there is no truth to it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A false teachings about something doesn't mean that there is no truth to it.

But it does tell us that the Bible has some serious flaws.

And since there have been hundreds if not thousands of end of the world prophecies and it has never come the correct reaction is to laugh at such claims.

 

[Skywalker]

But it does tell us that the Bible has some serious flaws.

And since there have been hundreds if not thousands of end of the world prophecies and it has never come the correct reaction is to laugh at such claims.

Those interpretations are because of human beings opinions, not because of what the Bible says.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Those interpretations are because of human beings opinions, not because of what the Bible says.

Then you are arguing that the Bible is flawed again.

 

[Skywalker]

But it does tell us that the Bible has some serious flaws.

And since there have been hundreds if not thousands of end of the world prophecies and it has never come the correct reaction is to laugh at such claims.

The prophecies of Nostradamus are not based on the Bible. He was into the occult, which goes against the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:9-12

"When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD"
Nostradamus Predictions and Prophecies OCCULT

Nostradamus Prophecies and Divination
In the following quatrain, he wrote how he came up with his prophecies:

Sitting alone at night in secret study; it is placed on the brass tripod. A slight flame comes out of the emptiness and makes successful that which should not be believed in vain (The Prophecies of Nostradamus, p. 20).

Erika Cheetham comments on his divination:

Both this and the following quatrain describe Nostradamus' method of divination, they are not predictions. Nostradamus used the methods of the 4th Century neo-Platonist Iamblichus, a reprint of whose book De Mysteriis Egyptorum was published at Lyons in 1547 and almost certainly read by Nostradamus. It may well have been the source of his experiments with prophecy, for soon afterwards his almanacs started to appear. All the ingredients for magical practices are in this quatrain. It is night. Nostradamus is alone in his study reading the secret forbidden books which inspire his prophecies; the brass tripod is a method used by Iamblichus -- on it was placed a bowl of water into which the seer gazed until the water became cloudy and pictures of the future were revealed. Flambe exique is the light of inspiration which seizes Nostradamus as he begins to prophesy (The Prophecies of Nostradamus, p. 20).

Scrying, which is commonly practiced by witches, was his method of predicting:

The term scrying, deriving from the English descry -- "to make out dimly" or "to reveal" -- denotes an ancient art of clairvoyance: concentrating on an object until visions appear. Scrying has been practiced by magicians and Witches through the ages. Among the purposes of scrying are predictions of the future, answers to questions, solutions to problems, help in finding lost objects, and help in tracking down criminals.

The object on which to concentrate is usually a shiny, smooth surface that makes a good speculum, such as the crystal ball used by Gypsy fortune-tellers or the still water of a lake or pond into which many early scryers gazed. Some of the most frequently used objects are mirrors, polished stones or metals, and bowls of liquid. Ink, blood, and other dark liquids were used by the Egyptians for centuries. Bowls of water were used by Nostradamus (Witchcraft Today, by James R. Lewis, copyrighted 1999, p. 264).

This is what happens in the OCCULT (which includes Nostradamus with his visions):
"The idols speak deceit, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain...." (Zech. 10:2)

 

[Skywalker]

Then you are arguing that the Bible is flawed again.

Anyone can interpret the Bible the wrong way. Muhammad said that the Bible was corrupt and the Quran has prophecies that aren't true. People sometimes use the Bible for their own gain. Muhammad's False Prophecies

On the Appearance of the Antichrist and the End of the World
Muhammad allegedly claimed that the Antichrist (called the Dajjal) was to appear shortly after the Muslim conquest of Constantinople. The following traditions are taken from the Sunan Abu Dawud:
Book 37, Number 4281:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu'adh ibn Jabal).
Book 37, Number 4282:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The greatest war, the conquest of Constantinople and the coming forth of the Dajjal (Antichrist) will take place within a period of seven months.
Book 37, Number 4283:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Busr:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The time between the great war and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) will be six years, and the Dajjal (Antichrist) will come forth in the seventh.
Accordingly, Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 636 AD. Constantinople was taken over by Muslims in May 1453 AD. Yet the prophecy regarding Yathrib (Medina) being in ruins and Antichrist's advent to take place seven months after the conquest of Constantinople did not materialize. Based on the preceding traditions Antichrist was to appear in November 1453.
Some may wish to argue that these events refer to future conquests. For instance some may wish to say that Constantinople is used as a synonym for the Roman Christian Empire. This would therefore be predicting that Muslims are to takeover Rome before Antichrist appears.
The problem with this is that if Muhammad was speaking of Rome he could have simply used the word Romans (Arabic: Ar-Rum). In fact, Romans/Ar-Rum is the name given to chapter 30 of the Quran. To call Rome either Constantinople or even Byzantium would be rather anachronistic. See above.
Hence, in light of the preceding factors we are forced to conclude that Muhammad's predictions failed to materialize, thus disqualifying him regarding his claim to prophethood.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The prophecies of Nostradamus are not based on the Bible. He was into the occult, which goes against the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:9-12

"When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD"
Nostradamus Predictions and Prophecies OCCULT

The only one talking about Nostradamus is you. Why even bring him up?