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Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You and others have claimed that environmental factors cause organisms to evolve certain ways( like water organisms being streamlined for water) There are marsupial dogs and placental dogs. What sort of environment would cause a dog like animal to evolve?
You start with the basic tetrapod shape that crawled out of the primordial sea, and a bunch of open, exploitable niches. The chase-catch-kill-eat niche selected for a doglike body form, best suited for this particular lifestyle. It got that way by natural selection, with individuals born with slight beneficial variations out-thriving their siblings and leaving more offspring carrying the modification.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Faith can involve evidenced belief. The evidence for the Gospel is based off of historical evidence. Osiris was based off folklore.
What historical evidence -- that wasn't common knowledge? And what about the historical inaccuracies, contradictions and outright errors?
Couldn't many religions claim historical support?
Evolution is doubtful because populations need to develop on the individual level before the population level.
What does that mean?
Evolution is a fact 'cause we have lots of evidence that life was different in the past. Do you not think the flora and fauna were different millions of years ago; that they changed (evolved)?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What historical evidence -- that wasn't common knowledge? And what about the historical inaccuracies, contradictions and outright errors?
Couldn't many religions claim historical support?
What does that mean?
Evolution is a fact 'cause we have lots of evidence that life was different in the past. Do you not think the flora and fauna were different millions of years ago; that they changed (evolved)?

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. There are different details about events by different authors but their message is the same. The Bible was written by 66 different authors who didn't know each other and it has the consistent nature of God being different from the gods of pagan mythology. The God of the Bible is holy and just and desires his creation have a relationship with him.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What historical evidence -- that wasn't common knowledge? And what about the historical inaccuracies, contradictions and outright errors?
Couldn't many religions claim historical support?
What does that mean?
Evolution is a fact 'cause we have lots of evidence that life was different in the past. Do you not think the flora and fauna were different millions of years ago; that they changed (evolved)?

What is historical about Osiris? Nobody witnessed his ressurection. The Evidence is Plain: Thoughts and Musings on Christianity : The Dying and Rising God: Jesus or Osiris?

Introduction:
Since the publication of Tom Harpur's "The Pagan Christ" in 2004 and the subsequent release of the YouTube documentary Zeitgeist in 2007, an ever-growing number of people have come to the conclusion that modern religions drew much of their inspiration from pagan mythology. Some have even gone so far as to conclude that all of the major religions in the world today are nothing more than a 21st century re-telling of ancient myths—if not outright plagiarism.
When it comes to Christianity in particular, many claims have been made that the stories of Jesus, the God who died and rose again, found in the four Gospels of the Bible, is a modernized version of the Egyptian god Osiris. After all, Osiris was a king who also died and came back to life, and promised to give eternal life to his followers as a reward for their devotion. So why wouldn’t one see the obvious parallels?
That being said, I want to present to you the facts about Osiris, as found in the ancient Egyptian mythologies, accompanied by a cross examination of the core doctrines and teachings of Christianity in order to ascertain the truth of which god is truly the Dying and Rising God.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible doesn't contradict itself. There are different details about events by different authors but their message is the same. The Bible was written by 66 different authors who didn't know each other and it has the consistent nature of God being different from the gods of pagan mythology. The God of the Bible is holy and just and desires his creation have a relationship with him.
Come on now. You can Google " biblical contradictions" and get lists of hundreds.
You know that.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But the resurrection of other religious figures was "witnessed," as well, and the reports of the resurrection in the Bible vary considerably, and, of course, are completely hearsay.

Nobody saw the night journey of Mohammed on the buraq. The details of all accounts written by different authors will have differing minute details because little details change over time. The people who witnessed the ressurection of Jesus had nothing to gain from saying that they saw Jesus. They were persecuted by the Romans and didn't recant their faith.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nobody saw the night journey of Mohammed on the buraq. The details of all accounts written by different authors will have differing minute details because little details change over time. The people who witnessed the ressurection of Jesus had nothing to gain from saying that they saw Jesus. They were persecuted by the Romans and didn't recant their faith.
There are only stories of Jesus's resurrection. Just as their are only stories of Mohammed's trip.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There are only stories of Jesus's resurrection. Just as their are only stories of Mohammed's trip.

Paul had plenty of opportunity to recant his faith in Jesus but he didnt. The Apostles were all killed except for John. The earliest Christians were fed to lions in the Coliseum. https://crossexamined.org/quick-case-jesus-resurrection/

*Saul Of Tarsus was hired by the Jewish Sanhedrin to persecute Christians by beating them, throwing them into prison, stoning them to death, etc.
The Principle of Embarrassment makes it highly likely that he was indeed a persecutor. People don’t make up horrible things about themselves, and usually, don’t admit them even if they’re true. Yet in 3 different epistles, Paul says that he was a harsh persecutor of Christians before his conversion (see 1 Corinthians 15:9, Galatians 1:13, 1 Timothy 1:13).

Multiple Attestation — Both Paul’s epistles and the book of Acts say that Paul was a persecutor of the church.

*Saul Converted To Christianity all of a sudden and became an active evangelist who suffered for his faith.
Multiple Attestation — Paul attests to his own suffering for the sake of the gospel in his epistles. The book of Acts also records Paul’s suffering.

The early church fathers, Polycarp, Tertullian, Clement of Rome, and several others record the account of Paul’s martyrdom under the emperor Nero.

*Saul — who later became known as Paul — claimed that he went from being a Christian destroyer to being a Christian maker because the risen Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. This is the most reasonable explanation for why he went from being someone who killed Christians to being a Christian himself virtually overnight.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What's your point?

There is eyewitness evidence for Jesus that there isn't for Osiris. https://crossexamined.org/quick-case-jesus-resurrection/

Fact 5: Jesus’ Post Mortem Appearance To James


*Jesus had a brother named James who did not believe He was God incarnate or the messiah during Jesus’ lifetime.
Multiple Attestation — The Gospel Of John (chapter 7) and The Gospel Of Mark (chapter 3) both attest to Jame’s skepticism. Very unlikely that they both fabricated the same lie independent of each other.

The Principle Of Embarrassment — Casts Jesus in a bad light given the stigma back then of any Rabbi whose family opposed his teaching. Casts James in a bad light, particularly in John 7 because in John 7, James and Jesus’ other brothers are trying to goad Him into a death trap by showing himself publicly at a feast when they were well aware that the Jewish authorities were seeking to kill Him. Why would John paint James and Jesus’ other brothers in such a bad light if this is not what actually happened?

*A short time after Jesus’ death, James came to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead
Multiple Attestation — The book of Acts as well as Paul’s letter to the Galatians (Galatians 2:9) reveals that James had become a leader of the church in Jerusalem.

*James was Martyred for his Christian faith
Multiple Attestation — Josephus, Hegesippus, and Clement Of Alexandria all record that James were murdered by the Jewish Sanhedrin for his belief in Jesus as the risen Messiah.

*The Most Likely Explanation for why James went from being a skeptic to being a believer virtually overnight is because the risen Jesus appeared to him as 1 Corinthians 15:7 says.

Conclusion
This is the historical evidence for the 5 facts undergirding the inference to the resurrection. The hypothesis “God raised Jesus from the dead” is the best explanation of these 5 facts. It meets all 6 of the standard criteria for confirming a historical theory.

1: It has great explanatory power.
2: It has great explanatory scope.
3: It is plausible.
4: Not ad-hoc.
5: It is in accord with accepted beliefs.
6: It outstrips rival theories in criteria 1-5. None of the naturalistic theories raised over the last 2,000 years to explain these 5 facts are tenable. They all fail.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There are no first person accounts of Jesus.

Jesus is very different from Osiris even if there are first person accounts of Jesus that one doubts, like the people who saw the resurrection of Jesus. The Evidence is Plain: Thoughts and Musings on Christianity : The Dying and Rising God: Jesus or Osiris?

In the Beginning: The Birth of a God
Just as the gods of ancient Egypt were numerous and varied, so too are the Egyptian accounts of creation. Some inscriptions tell of a cosmic egg that existed before creation, while other versions assert that the world was born out of water and darkness. Some of the earliest myths from the Old Kingdom attribute the creation of the world to eight primordial gods, the Ogdoad, while later stories give credit to a single creator god—Atum or Ra being two of the more popular deities. Still other accounts claim that the world began when the sun rose for the first time. However, despite their differences, most of the Egyptian creation myths do have many elements in common. That said, and for the purpose of this article, the following version of the creation myth seems to be the most accurate representation of Egyptian creation mythology.
In the beginning the world existed as a swirling void of dark, watery chaos called Nu. It was out of this darkness that the creator god, Atum emerged, creating himself through the power of his thoughts and sheer force of will. That said, spell 261 of the Coffin Text seems to imply that there was another god present before creation, Heka, the god of magic.
Heka is sometimes referred to as “the eternal god” though in reality he seems to have been viewed more as a supernatural cosmic power—magic—used by the gods, who was later deified into the god of magic and medicine. Additionally, his claim of eternal preexistence is thrown into serious doubt by the fact that he was believed by some Egyptian cults to be the son of the god Khnum and one of several goddesses: Nebetu’u (Hathor), Menhit, Mehetweret, or Neith, while still other texts assert that Heka was created by Atum at the time of creation.
After creating himself, Atum created a hill, the Ben-Ben to stand on, as before that time there was no ground in Nu’s watery void.
Now Atum was alone. Being filled with loneliness, and being neither male nor female, Atum had sex with his own shadow and gave birth to twins, a son and a daughter. His son,Shu, was born from either Atum’s sneezes or semen, depending on the myth in question. Shu became god of the air, while his sister, Tefnut, who was vomited up by Atum, became the goddess of mist and moisture. These two children of Atum brought order to the chaos and void of Nu. They divided the light from the darkness and brought stability, law and order to the world. It was this natural order that the ancient Egyptians referred to as Ma’at .Ma’at was often depicted as a feather, as it was viewed as being pure and lightweight.
Later, the two children of Atum, Shu and his sister Tefnut had sex and gave birth toGeb, the earth god, and his sister, Nut, the sky goddess. These two gods would likewise engage in incestual relations, forcing Shu to push Nut into the sky where she would forever be separated from Geb—all for the sake of fulfilling their roles in Ma’at. However, this was not before Nut had conceived the principle gods of Egypt through her union with Geb.
The names and number of these gods vary once again from myth to myth, with some versions of the creation story including Hathor, Thoth and Horus the Elder among those begotten of Nut. However their are four main deities that appear to be universally accepted in the narrative: Nephthys, Isis, Set (Seth) and Osiris.
Therefore, it is clearly evident in Egyptian Mythology that Osiris was not preexistent. That is to say, he was not eternal. He had not always existed and had a definitive beginning, being born—as most ancient gods are—through a sexual union between two other gods.
On the other hand, Christian theology teaches that Jesus is eternal, having existed as God for eternity. (John 1:1-18, John 10:30-33) Therefore Jesus is without beginning in regards to his divine nature.
With respect to Jesus’ earthly nature, however, the Bible teaches that he was born of a virgin. Not through a sexual union between Mary and God—which would make Jesus a demigod—but through a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit, as foretold in Isaiah 7:14 andGenesis 3:14-15. This point was of such great importance that the Bible goes out of its way to emphasis the fact that Marry remained a virgin until after the baby was born in Matthew 1:20-25.
Additionally, Christian theology states that God has existed forever, he has no beginning and no end. He was there before creation (Genesis 1:1-2) He did not need to create himself, like Atum, in order to exist.
Furthermore, God is triune in nature. That is to say, he exists as one God in three persons. He is not three gods. He is not a three-headed god. He is three persons in oneGod. Just as each of us exists as one, individual person in one human being, so God exists as three distinct persons—The Father, The Son (Jesus) and The Holy Spirit—in one eternal being: God.
Therefore, since God is triune, God was not lonely at the time of creation. He has existed in perfect love and unity within himself for all eternity. Likewise God is not dependent on his creation for purpose and meaning—He created the world simply because it pleased him to do so. The Christian God did not require other gods working for eons to create the universe for him, he created it all by his word alone! (Genesis 1-2) The God of the Bible is literally the Creator God.
In that regard the only similarity between the Genesis account of creation and Egyptian mythology is the fact that the world was covered by a primeval ocean before the creation of dry land; a theme that, for the most part, seems to be widely held if not universal among virtually every ancient civilization.
Furthermore, it is illogical to assume that these universal themes were inspired by other religions given the fact that many of these cultures (i.e the Polynesian cultures) are so far removed from one another that they are unlikely to have ever come into contact. What seems far more likely to me is that the concept of a primeval ocean is founded on a historical truth that was, at one time, common knowledge, and that it was this common knowledge, passed down from generation to generation since the time of creation, that formed the inspiration for the countless creation myths we find throughout the ancient world.

Jesus in the Bible is self-existent and not a demigod.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The early Christians died for their faith. Nobody died for the belief that Mohammad went to heaven on the buraq.
Are you sure about that? Early Christians died, but did they do it for their faith? And how do you know that Muslims did not do the same? Islam was largely spread by the sword. Some of those Muslims died.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Paul had plenty of opportunity to recant his faith in Jesus but he didnt. The Apostles were all killed except for John. The earliest Christians were fed to lions in the Coliseum. https://crossexamined.org/quick-case-jesus-resurrection/
Wrong again. Of the apostles it appears that only Peter died. Paul was not an apostle.

Once again, you used a dishonest source. Try to use real history.

EDIT: Oops, add James of Zebadee. He was one of the twelve. But the only record of both Paul and Peter are biblical ones, not historic ones:

Apostles - Wikipedia.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Are you sure about that? Early Christians died, but did they do it for their faith? And how do you know that Muslims did not do the same? Islam was largely spread by the sword. Some of those Muslims died.

You can't compare the two situations because the apostles never spread their faith by the sword. Jesus said that those who live by the sword die by the sword. Matthew 26, 26:52
 
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