Do You Believe In God, Why? Don't You Believe In God, Why?

[Subduction Zone]

Too small to notice is not gradual on the micro level. Gradualness cannot explain evolution. How Did the Elephant Get Its Long Trunk?

Why use sites by people that know nothing? They only make themselves look like fools by using ignorant arguments and you do not look any better.

Do you know what a peer reviewed article is?

 

[Skywalker]

Why use sites by people that know nothing? They only make themselves look like fools by using ignorant arguments and you do not look any better.

Do you know what a peer reviewed article is?

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution because gradual things are not gradual on the micro level. They are gradual in terms of what we see and notice. Gradual things have gray areas and intermediates, but there are still absolutes-they just are impossible to notice. How Did the Elephant Get Its Long Trunk?

How did the elephant get its long trunk? In his fairy tale, "The Elephant’s Child," Rudyard Kipling fictionally describes how the elephant got its long trunk. Originally, we are told, elephants had short noses, but one day a young elephant got too close to the river and was attacked by a crocodile. Biting the elephant on the nose, the crocodile tried to pull him into the river. As the elephant pulled back, his nose stretched until it became the trunk we see today.

While we all recognize this story as fiction, evolutionists have used the same plot to describe how the giraffe got its long neck. Evolutionists used to teach that one giraffe stretched its neck to reach distant foliage and therefore its offspring had longer necks. Of course evolutionists claimed this process happened gradually, with each generation of giraffes having only slightly longer necks than its predecessor, but the idea was the same. The idea was that any type of change which an organism underwent it its lifetime could be passed on to its offspring. For example, people who customarily spent more time in the sun and therefore had deeper tans would have children who were darker than those who spent less time in the sun. Thus, with nothing more than a fairy tale, evolutionists explained everything from elephants’ trunks and giraffes’ necks to dark and light skinned human races.

For the most part, evolutionists no longer defend this concept. In fact, "…German biologist August Weismann…in 1893…cut off the tails of mice for many generations, and showed that this had no effect on the tail length of their descendants." (1) But even without Weismann’s maimed mice to show it false, this type of evolution was not science. The problem was that while evolutionists claimed giraffes’ necks grew longer from generation to generation, no one could explain how it happened. No one could show, step by step, what would cause a giraffe with a stretched neck to pass on that stretch to its young. Our point is that without a sound mechanism to show how it works, evolution was, and is, nothing more than a fairy tale. So what is the mechanism of evolution?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution because gradual things are not gradual on the micro level. They are gradual in terms of what we see and notice. Gradual things have gray areas and intermediates, but there are still absolutes-they just are impossible to notice. How Did the Elephant Get Its Long Trunk?

The fools that you linked to did not support any of their claims. Also they do not understand that they are talking about two different time scales. The changes that they claim paleontologists said occurred was either a lie or demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what they paleontologists claimed. On a geologic time scale some changes are very rapid. But those changes still take place over thousands of years. Thousands of years is very rapid when compared to millions of years.

Please use valid sources. Don't link to idiots that could not pass a junior high biology class.

 

[Skywalker]

The fools that you linked to did not support any of their claims. Also they do not understand that they are talking about two different time scales. The changes that they claim paleontologists said occurred was either a lie or demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what they paleontologists claimed. On a geologic time scale some changes are very rapid. But those changes still take place over thousands of years. Thousands of years is very rapid when compared to millions of years.

Please use valid sources. Don't link to idiots that could not pass a junior high biology class.

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution because time scales and rapid or slow changes do not change that gradualness only exists on the level of what can be seen-it doesn't exist on the micro level.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution because time scales and rapid or slow changes do not change that gradualness only exists on the level of what can be seen-it doesn't exist on the micro level.

Uh huh. Just keep telling yourself that.

And why are you arguing against the fact of evolution? Guess what, the fact that the Bible supports a Flat Earth more than a spherical one (do you remember all of those arguments that you lost?) does not refute God. The fact that the Bible says that the Earth is fixed and at the center of the universe and everything rotates around it does not refute God. The fact that life is the product of evolution and Genesis is mythical does not refute God. Some of those facts may refute your version of God but it does not refute God himself. Instead of trying to defend the indefensible you should try to understand why you are wrong.

And guess what? If you do not take the Bible literally you do not have the problem of the incredibly evil moral character of your version of God. You can just toss the uncomfortable parts of the Bible. Heck you probably already do that to some degree. I am pretty sure I can find parts of the Bible that you will deny.

 

[thomas t]

You on the other hand have discounted ALL the other possibilities and decided that it MUST be your god being. That's called confirmation bias.

No, at this point I am arguing in favor of a loving forces that's somehow higher, that's all. At This point I don't even say, it must be a God. Just a loving force.

If we assume there's a currently undefined chemical that affects us, why restrict the chemical to only affecting us in one way?

You see, I can make the exact same assumptions about my proposed chemical as you can make about your proposed god.

I don't agree. There is no reason to assume that a substance, just for being a chemical, can and does act on two different parts of the body in two different ways triggering two different events.
It's Possible.
However, it's one assumption plus.
I am not restricting the chemical from acting in those ways, though.
I'm just saying you need 1 assumption extra then.

 

[Valjean]

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution because time scales and rapid or slow changes do not change that gradualness only exists on the level of what can be seen-it doesn't exist on the micro level.

"...gradualness only exists on the level of what can be seen-it doesn't exist on the micro level.[/QUOTE]I don't even know what that means.

Why can't evolution be driven at unseen levels? Does it matter if changes are small or large? They accumulate either way.
Evolution can proceed quickly or glacially, depending on various factors.

 

[Skywalker]

"...gradualness only exists on the level of what can be seen-it doesn't exist on the micro level.

I don't even know what that means.

Why can't evolution be driven at unseen levels? Does it matter if changes are small or large? They accumulate either way.
Evolution can proceed quickly or glacially, depending on various factors.[/QUOTE]

Gradualness explains things that exist on a case by case basis. If you knew me when I was 14, at 15 I wouldn't look so much like an older teenager as if you didn't know me. In the absolute sense, Evolution doesn't work in the same way.

 

[Valjean]

I don't even know what that means.

Why can't evolution be driven at unseen levels? Does it matter if changes are small or large? They accumulate either way.
Evolution can proceed quickly or glacially, depending on various factors.

Gradualness explains things that exist on a case by case basis. If you knew me when I was 14, at 15 I wouldn't look so much like an older teenager as if you didn't know me. In the absolute sense, Evolution doesn't work in the same way.[/QUOTE]
Evolution works on populations, not individuals.

 

[Skywalker]

Gradualness explains things that exist on a case by case basis. If you knew me when I was 14, at 15 I wouldn't look so much like an older teenager as if you didn't know me. In the absolute sense, Evolution doesn't work in the same way.

Evolution works on populations, not individuals.[/QUOTE]

It has to work on individuals before the population. If individuals couldn't survive certain environments or evolve gradually then populations couldn't.

 

[Skywalker]

Uh huh. Just keep telling yourself that.

And why are you arguing against the fact of evolution? Guess what, the fact that the Bible supports a Flat Earth more than a spherical one (do you remember all of those arguments that you lost?) does not refute God. The fact that the Bible says that the Earth is fixed and at the center of the universe and everything rotates around it does not refute God. The fact that life is the product of evolution and Genesis is mythical does not refute God. Some of those facts may refute your version of God but it does not refute God himself. Instead of trying to defend the indefensible you should try to understand why you are wrong.

And guess what? If you do not take the Bible literally you do not have the problem of the incredibly evil moral character of your version of God. You can just toss the uncomfortable parts of the Bible. Heck you probably already do that to some degree. I am pretty sure I can find parts of the Bible that you will deny.

Doesn't there are no change of kinds and there is a God support that evolution is not a fact?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution

Evolution is a gradual process. No matter how much you like to deny it.
The more you deny it, the more you make clear to everyone here that you're just arguing a strawman.

because gradual things are not gradual on the micro level

You make zero sense.
Mutations are by definition "micro changes".
Mutations are inherited by off spring. They add their own mutations and pass those on, along with those they got from their own parents, to their off spring.
Etc etc etc.

Gradualism. The accumulation of mutations (micro-changes) over generations.

They are gradual in terms of what we see and notice.

Seeing and noticing has nothing to do with it.
It's gradual in terms of it happens by the gradual accumulation of mutations / micro-changes over generations.

Gradual things have gray areas and intermediates

And evolution has exactly that.

, but there are still absolutes-they just are impossible to notice. How Did the Elephant Get Its Long Trunk?

Elephants | Paleo Sleuths

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Gradualness is not the mechanism of evolution

The mechanism of evolution is descent with modification followed by natural selection. This process brings about change in a gradual way.

because time scales and rapid or slow changes do not change that gradualness only exists on the level of what can be seen-it doesn't exist on the micro level.

No sense this make.

So.... when are you finally going to learn the basics of the basics of this well-established scientific theory you are so hellbend on arguing against out of religious conviction?

 

[Skywalker]

Evolution is a gradual process. No matter how much you like to deny it.
The more you deny it, the more you make clear to everyone here that you're just arguing a strawman.



You make zero sense.
Mutations are by definition "micro changes".
Mutations are inherited by off spring. They add their own mutations and pass those on, along with those they got from their own parents, to their off spring.
Etc etc etc.

Gradualism. The accumulation of mutations (micro-changes) over generations.




Seeing and noticing has nothing to do with it.
It's gradual in terms of it happens by the gradual accumulation of mutations / micro-changes over generations.




And evolution has exactly that.



Elephants | Paleo Sleuths

Something gradual doesn't just have gray areas and intermediates, but those, and the absolute definition of what constitutes it, are determined on a case by case basis.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Gradualness explains things that exist on a case by case basis. If you knew me when I was 14, at 15 I wouldn't look so much like an older teenager as if you didn't know me. In the absolute sense, Evolution doesn't work in the same way.

Evolution works in exactly the same way, in terms of a buildup of changes.

If all your ancestors of the past 10 million years would hold hands and you'ld go back looking at their appearance one by one, there would be no single individual of which you would be able to say "this one is not a human", while the one right next to it is a human. It doesn't work that way, because evolution is a gradual process.

The same goes with your age indeed.
If you'ld look at a picture of your face from every day of your life, starting as a child and ending as an adult, there would be no single picture of which you would say "in this picture I'm not an adult", while in the picture right next to it you are an adult. It just doesn't work that way.

Here's a nice analogy using color:

Sorry if you can't read it, I didn't immediately find a better quality picture.
Anyhow, the text starts out as read and ends in blue. Please, show me the "first" blue word in the paragraph, where the one immediately before it, is still red.

Evolution is the exact same. It is the nature of gradual change.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Doesn't there are no change of kinds and there is a God support that evolution is not a fact?

Evolution is a fact. You may not like it, but there is nothing that you can do about it.

And you do not know that there is a God. You only have a belief in God. Knowledge is demonstrable. If you knew that there was a God you could support it. And if you care to learn there are countless resources that do not openly lie that can help you understand evolution.

 

[Skywalker]

Evolution is a fact. You may not like it, but there is nothing that you can do about it.

And you do not know that there is a God. You only have a belief in God. Knowledge is demonstrable. If you knew that there was a God you could support it. And if you care to learn there are countless resources that do not openly lie that can help you understand evolution.

Every belief takes faith. We are believers, not knowers.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It has to work on individuals before the population. If individuals couldn't survive certain environments or evolve gradually then populations couldn't.

Evolution occurs in populations. Sure, initial mutations happen in individuals. From there, they have to spread throughout the population before we'll talk about evolution having occured.

If you would have high school level knowledge of the theory you are so religiously motivated to argue against, you'ld know this....

Evolution is about population dynamics. Not about invidiuals.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Doesn't there are no change of kinds and there is a God support that evolution is not a fact?

Can you rephrase that question so that it actually makes sense? It reads like you started one sentence and then finished another, as if you switched sentences mid-way.


In any case, when are you going to define this word "kind" you seem so fond of using?

 

[Skywalker]

Evolution occurs in populations. Sure, initial mutations happen in individuals. From there, they have to spread throughout the population before we'll talk about evolution having occured.

If you would have high school level knowledge of the theory you are so religiously motivated to argue against, you'ld know this....

Evolution is about population dynamics. Not about invidiuals.

That doesn't explain the notion of gradualness is explained by evolution being on a population level. That implies that it's not possible on an individual level. It's also not possible for individuals not to be able to develop the traits needed to survive a certain environment, but the population does.