Do you believe in the mystical?

[godnotgod]

A spontaneous event is a completely mysterious one.

That depends. If one is attached to a rational mode of thought, the spontaneous appears as being paradoxical. IOW, the rational mind is the kind of mind that is always seeking a way to 'figure things out', and which holds preconceived notions about what comes next, but because the nature of the spontaneous is non-rational, there is paradox.

OTOH, if the mind is held 'slightly ajar; the spontaneous event can be a truly enlightening one, as the famous Japanese Haiku poem signifies:

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto

old still pond,
frog,
leapsplash

Zen calls this unexpected aural event 'a letter from home', which is the awakening of Original Mind.

 

[roger1440]

Who said anything about 'supernatural'? The mystical experience is the merging, or union with universal consciousness that is nature, or, the universe. It involves a transformation of consciousness which sees reality differently than how the rational mind sees it, the rational mind being altered consciousness. Currently, Quantum Physics has been demonstrating that what the rational mind thinks is the case, is not actually the case, the latest revelations being that the mass of the atom is created out of fluctuations in the quantum field. IOW, 'material reality' is virtual.

Merging of subject/object is not mere clinical loss of differentiation. There is increase of consciousness, not a diminishing of it. Merging is just part of the experience.



When the mind is clear of personal attachments, what one sees is the same as what others see. Why should it be any different?

Actually when one has a mystical experience he/she experiences reality from a different perspective or focal point. The mystery comes from the inability to put the experience into words. The only way to explain a mystical experience is to use metaphors, symbols or poetry. It sort of tastes like chicken Some use pictures.

 

[Gambit]

No, not at all.

So, you don't appreciate the mystery of existence?

 

[godnotgod]

Sure I guess.

Whaddya mean 'I guess'; of course it is, and being its relative opposite, means one knows Black in terms of White.

How does it answer that? You just make assertions, but do not give a ratonale.

You stated that the unknown is just the unknown, and nothing else, but that is not so, because, as I illustrated in several ways, it cannot exist without also including its relative opposite, which is the known. To say 'un-known' is to say that something exists that can potentially be known.

 

[Bunyip]

Whaddya mean 'I guess'; of course it is, and being its relative opposite, means one knows Black in terms of White.

Or grey, blue, yellow.

You stated that the unknown is just the unknown, and nothing else, but that is not so, because, as I illustrated in several ways, it cannot exist without also including its relative opposite, which is the known. To say 'un-known' is to say that something exists that can potentially be known.

You have made that assertion, but not given any reasoning.

 

[godnotgod]

Actually when one has a mystical experience he/she experiences reality from a different perspective or focal point.

Of course, but that focal point is the true focal point, which is unaltered consciousness, while our ordinary everyday conception of reality is what is actually the altered state. IOW, the mystical experience allows one to see things as they actually are, rather than how our mental conditioning tells us they are.

The mystery comes from the inability to put the experience into words.

Does it? Or is it because our ordinary consciousness, via knowledge, does not understand what it is that it is experiencing, even though there is no doubt as to the authenticity of the experience?

The only way to explain a mystical experience is to use metaphors, symbols or poetry. It sort of tastes like chicken Some use pictures.

Anything of this nature is only a silent pointing finger. One of the keys to realization is attention.

 

[godnotgod]

Or grey, blue, yellow.

There must still be a contrasting field.

You have made that assertion, but not given any reasoning.

I gave you the reasoning. If it still makes no sense to you, then show me how the unknown can exist without including the known? Even the word itself contains a reference to the known.

You've heard it said that we should keep an 'open mind'. Open means receptive, and to be receptive, the mind must not contain any preconceived notions about what it is about to see. That means the mind is empty, and an empty mind is a mind of not-knowing. Only by the condition of not-knowing can the mind be clear enough for the unknown to become known. People who do not have an open mind are referred to as ignorant, because their preconceptions of reality disallow the unknown to become the known.

 

[Bunyip]

There must still be a contrasting field.

Great. I agree. What is the contrast between the unknown and unknowable?

I gave you the reasoning. If it still makes no sense to you, then show me how the unknown can exist without including the known? Even the word itself contains a reference to the known.

You've heard it said that we should keep an 'open mind'. Open means receptive, and to be receptive, the mind must not contain any preconceived notions about what it is about to see. That means the mind is empty, and an empty mind is a mind of not-knowing. Only by the condition of not-knowing can the mind be clear enough for the unknown to become known. People who do not have an open mind are referred to as ignorant, because their preconceptions of reality disallow the unknown to become the known.

 

[dgirl1986]

No I do not.

 

[godnotgod]

Great. I agree. What is the contrast between the unknown and unknowable?

The contrast is between the relative values of both the known and the unknown against that of the Unknowable, which is The Absolute. Known and unknown are in the sphere of rational thought; the Unknowable is not. It is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis.

Here's a tibit for you to chew on:

You see the hedge against the hills;
you see the hills against the sky;
but you see the sky against consciousness.

 

[Bunyip]

The contrast is between the relative values of both the known and the unknown against that of the Unknowable, which is The Absolute. Known and unknown are in the sphere of rational thought; the Unknowable is not. It is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis.

Here's a tibit for you to chew on:

You see the hedge against the hills;
you see the hills against the sky;
but you see the sky against consciousness.

I asked you how you contrast the unknown and the unknowable,

 

[godnotgod]

I asked you how you contrast the unknown and the unknowable,

Think about a triangle, with the known at one point of the base, and the unknown at the opposite base point. The Unknowable is at the apex, and contains both the known and the unknown. So the known/unknown duality is contrasted against The Absolute of the Unknowable. The duality of the known/unknown is about the phenomenal world; the Unknowable is the background to the phenomenal world, or out of which the phenomenal world is being manifested.

When you see the sky against consciousness, there is nothing for the mind to grasp, This ungrasping consciousness is the Unknowable, and you're it.

 

[Bunyip]

Legion
Fantastic to hear that like me you are agnostic, along with Dawkins and most of the NA. Great to finally find common ground between us all.

Think about a triangle, with the known at one point of the base, and the unknown at the opposite base point. The Unknowable is at the apex, and contains both the known and the unknown.

What? Surely the apex is as knowable as the opposite point. Is there a circumstance where the opposite point is knowable, but the apex not? I can't think of any I'm sorry.

So the known/unknown duality is contrasted against The Absolute of the Unknowable.

Hang on! Why is it absolute? So many things we thought unknowable we know now. That is a counter factual claim surely?

The duality of the known/unknown is about the phenomenal world; the Unknowable is the background to the phenomenal world, or out of which the phenomenal world is being manifested.

What world is that? How do you know it exists?

When you see the sky against consciousness, there is nothing for the mind to grasp, This ungrasping consciousness is the Unknowable, and you're it.

What is an ungrasping consciousness, and how do you know it exists if it is unknowable? I am struggling to decipher your meaning.
You just said you know an unknowable, but were contrasting the known and the unknowable a few minutes ago as opposites.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A spontaneous event is a completely mysterious one.

... and therefore has "spiritual meaning"?

 

[godnotgod]

What? Surely the apex is as knowable as the opposite point. Is there a circumstance where the opposite point is knowable, but the apex not? I can't think of any I'm sorry.

It is not knowable via the rational mind.

Hang on! Why is it absolute? So many things we thought unknowable we know now. That is a counter factual claim surely?

If something is unknowable, it cannot have an opposite that is called 'the known'. That makes it an absolute. The opposite to the known is the unknown, not the unknowable.

What world is that? How do you know it exists?

It is the world that we see, hear, taste, touch, and smell.

What is an ungrasping consciousness, and how do you know it exists if it is unknowable?

The mind is always attempting to encapsulate what it sees via concept, idea, belief, etc. Consciousness without thought only sees, without attempting to grasp what it sees. Are you conscious?

I am struggling to decipher your meaning.
You just said you know an unknowable, but were contrasting the known and the unknowable a few minutes ago as opposites.

Since the known and the unknown are inseparable, they can only be contrasted with the unknowable as a duality. Known and unknown are opposites; unknowable has no opposite.

 

[Bunyip]

It is not knowable via the rational mind.

Ok, great - how?

If something is unknowable, it cannot have an opposite that is called 'the known'. That makes it an absolute. The opposite to the known is the unknown, not the unknowable.

Ye, that was my point. But you kept positing the unknown and the unknowable as opposites.

It is the world that we see, hear, taste, touch, and smell.

No it is not - the world we can see, hear, touch and smell is the physical world.

The mind is always attempting to encapsulate what it sees via concept, idea, belief, etc. Consciousness without thought only sees, without attempting to grasp what it sees. Are you conscious?

Yes, but surely consciousness IS thought?

Since the known and the unknown are inseparable, they can only be contrasted with the unknowable as a duality. Known and unknown are opposites; unknowable has no opposite.

Why are they inseperable? They are opposites, they are separable in that they are opposites.

 

[godnotgod]

Ok, great - how?

The intuitive mind is the pathway to the experience. But first the overactive thinking mind must be subdued.

Ye, that was my point. But you kept positing the unknown and the unknowable as opposites.

No. I keep telling you that the unknown and the known are relative opposites, but you continue to read your own meaning into what I'm saying. The unknowable is absolute; it is not relative to anything.

No it is not - the world we can see, hear, touch and smell is the physical world.

heh...heh...Quantum Physics has a lot to say about what we used to think of as the 'material world'. It is now considered to be the old paradigm in some circles, but be that as it may, whether it is the phenomenal world of experience or the 'physical' world, it is the same world that is being manifested as the world we inhabit.

Yes, but surely consciousness IS thought?

No. Mind is thought, but consciousness is before mind. Universal Consciousness is transcendent of personal ego-mind.

Why are they inseperable? They are opposites, they are separable in that they are opposites.

Is it not apparent to you that if two things are in opposition, they have a relationship with one another? 'Opposition' does not necessarily mean separation.

'Tweedlededee and Tweedlededum agreed to have a battle'

Westerners tend to see 'opposites' as being separate and in opposition, while the East tends to see them as complimentary and harmonious, as in Yin and Yang. Any such 'separation' is only a mental construct. All relative opposites are, in reality, inseparable. You cannot have night without day; good without evil; male without female; black without white; etc. To speak of one is to include the other. It's automatic.

​

Has it not become apparent to you that much of the conflict and misery of the world is a result of those who want to enforce some idea of separation of the relative opposites, especially the concept of 'good vs. evil, with disastrous results?

"When a concept of The Good is created, a corresponding concept of Evil is also automatically created. Having created a concept of The Good, Evil must now be opposed, as dictated by The Good. In opposing Evil, Evil is only made stronger. Therefore, the wise never do (moral) Good."

Chinese source

When the ego gets hold of knowledge, it attempts to prop itself up as superior to those who do not have this knowledge, and in so doing, creates conflict and division in the world, which only leads to confusion and divisiveness. We see some of this going on in the scientific community, where 'materialists' insist that Quantum Physics belongs to science alone, and mystics and others keep your distance.

 

[arthra]

I would say that over my life time that the spiritual reality and mystical experiences form an important part of my life...

Baha'u'llah tells us:

"...I therefore reveal unto thee sacred and resplendent tokens from the planes of glory, to attract thee into the court of holiness and nearness and beauty, and draw thee to a station wherein thou shalt see nothing in creation save the Face of thy Beloved One, the Honored, and behold all created things only as in the day wherein none hath a mention."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys, Pages 1-8

 

[Bunyip]

The intuitive mind is the pathway to the experience. But first the overactive thinking mind must be subdued.



No. I keep telling you that the unknown and the known are relative opposites, but you continue to read your own meaning into what I'm saying. The unknowable is absolute; it is not relative to anything.



heh...heh...Quantum Physics has a lot to say about what we used to think of as the 'material world'. It is now considered to be the old paradigm in some circles, but be that as it may, whether it is the phenomenal world of experience or the 'physical' world, it is the same world that is being manifested as the world we inhabit.



No. Mind is thought, but consciousness is before mind. Universal Consciousness is transcendent of personal ego-mind.



Is it not apparent to you that if two things are in opposition, they have a relationship with one another? 'Opposition' does not necessarily mean separation.

'Tweedlededee and Tweedlededum agreed to have a battle'

Westerners tend to see 'opposites' as being separate and in opposition, while the East tends to see them as complimentary and harmonious, as in Yin and Yang. Any such 'separation' is only a mental construct. All relative opposites are, in reality, inseparable. You cannot have night without day; good without evil; male without female; black without white; etc. To speak of one is to include the other. It's automatic.

​

Has it not become apparent to you that much of the conflict and misery of the world is a result of those who want to enforce some idea of separation of the relative opposites, especially the concept of 'good vs. evil, with disastrous results?

"When a concept of The Good is created, a corresponding concept of Evil is also automatically created. Having created a concept of The Good, Evil must now be opposed, as dictated by The Good. In opposing Evil, Evil is only made stronger. Therefore, the wise never do (moral) Good."

Chinese source

When the ego gets hold of knowledge, it attempts to prop itself up as superior to those who do not have this knowledge, and in so doing, creates conflict and division in the world, which only leads to confusion and divisiveness. We see some of this going on in the scientific community, where 'materialists' insist that Quantum Physics belongs to science alone, and mystics and others keep your distance.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. My apologies.

 

[godnotgod]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. My apologies.

All relative opposites are just two sides of the same coin. When the seeming duality is transcended, they are seen as they actually are: a singular reality. It is the ordinary conditioned mind that sees them as separate and dual. That is what the mystic realizes is illusion.