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Do you believe Moses parted the Red Sea?

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
According to the story, the reason Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go was that God had hardened his heart. He was only stubborn because God made him stubborn.

I actually love the Prince of Egypt movie far better than the source material, because that little detail is left out entirely. It's a God trying to protect his people from foreign enslavement. He knows "Pharaoh won't listen", but isn't the direct source of that stubbornness.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes but still, who would be so loyal to fearlessly and recklessly obey Pharoah after repeatedly He was proven to be an unreliable, pitiful, and a worthless "God".

No one defied Pharaoh and lived to tell the story.
Since Pharaoh and his entire army perished in the waters, Egypt must have taken quite a while to recover from the loss of so many men.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
According to the story, the reason Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go was that God had hardened his heart. He was only stubborn because God made him stubborn.

Ex 9:34, 35:
"When Pharʹaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had stopped, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he as well as his servants. 35 And Pharʹaoh’s heart continued obstinate, and he did not send the Israelites away, just as Jehovah had stated through Moses."

God didn't need to harden Pharaoh's heart...he did it himself and God did not soften it.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
No one defied Pharaoh and lived to tell the story.
Since Pharaoh and his entire army perished in the waters, Egypt must have taken quite a while to recover from the loss of so many men.

Where's the record of such an event in their history? Ancient Egypt was meticulous about recording its history, all from its great successes and failures.

Has there been any consensus made on which Pharaoh this was? Do the records name any Pharaohs who dronwed?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Where's the record of such an event in their history? Ancient Egypt was meticulous about recording its history, all from its great successes and failures.

Has there been any consensus made on which Pharaoh this was? Do the records name any Pharaohs who dronwed?

Ah......the one thing missing from the history of any proud nation like Egypt is its defeats...they were never recorded. The ten plagues were designed to humiliate Egypt's gods, one by one. The last god was Pharaoh himself. You won't find mention of it.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
That is clever of you to say that because I also wondered how they could be so stupid as to pursue Israel after all those plagues or not let them go after the first few.

My faith in the Bible is very much wavering lately. The power of Prayer I am convinced of , as well as medically documented Miracles, where prayer has accomplished what is scientifically and medically unexplainable (apparently impossible) but I'm the first to confess to God and others that much of the Bible to me seems too ridiculous to take seriously.
The Bible explains it, God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah......the one thing missing from the history of any proud nation like Egypt is its defeats...they were never recorded. The ten plagues were designed to humiliate Egypt's gods, one by one. The last god was Pharaoh himself. You won't find mention of it.
That's not exactly true. There are records of Egypt's defeats both in and outside Egypt, especially by their Nubian neighbors. There's no record of this particular defeat, but there's also absolutely no archaeological evidence of Hebrew slaves or nomads in Sinai or the Nile delta areas, despite that we have archaeological remains of nomads in smaller sixes and older periods elsewhere.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's not exactly true. There are records of Egypt's defeats both in and outside Egypt, especially by their Nubian neighbors. There's no record of this particular defeat, but there's also absolutely no archaeological evidence of Hebrew slaves or nomads in Sinai or the Nile delta areas, despite that we have archaeological remains of nomads in smaller sixes and older periods elsewhere.

You either believe the Bible is the word of God or you believe it is the word of men.....I believe it is the word of God. Proud nations did not always record anything that might paint their leaders in a bad light....especially not the loss of an entire army and its god/king.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Ah......the one thing missing from the history of any proud nation like Egypt is its defeats...they were never recorded. The ten plagues were designed to humiliate Egypt's gods, one by one. The last god was Pharaoh himself. You won't find mention of it.

"Last god?" Interesting claim, considering that Egypt remained polytheist until Islam (except for that brief period with Akenaten); the Last Pharaoh was Cleopatra, after which Egypt was subject to Rome. That happened almost exactly 1500 years after Moses supposedly lived, IIRC. Also, "one by one"? Do you mean to claim that there's only 10 Gods in Egypt's entire pantheon, including Pharaoh? 'Cause I'm pretty sure there's a fair amount more than that.

Besides, if what you say is true, then we'd expect absolutely no records whatsoever of any failure within all of Egypt's 4,000 years of history. Have you studied all of that history enough to confidently state that Egypt's records contain no mention of any of its failures?

And even if Egypt didn't record this particular defeat, we'd still expect to find a period of about... what, 30, 40, 50 years? of nothing. After all, in your argument, that particular Pharaoh was stricken from all of Egypt's historical records. There'd be a period where no records existed at all from this culture, which is reputed to have been so meticulous about such things. So, do you know of any broken lines?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
"Last god?" Interesting claim, considering that Egypt remained polytheist until Islam (except for that brief period with Akenaten); the Last Pharaoh was Cleopatra, after which Egypt was subject to Rome. That happened almost exactly 1500 years after Moses supposedly lived, IIRC. Also, "one by one"? Do you mean to claim that there's only 10 Gods in Egypt's entire pantheon, including Pharaoh? 'Cause I'm pretty sure there's a fair amount more than that.

No you misunderstand. I was not suggesting that Pharaoh was Egypt's last god. I was saying that each one of the plagues was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods. The last god to be humiliated was Pharaoh himself. The one born to be the next Pharaoh (god) was taken away because of his failure to accede to God's request. This was after 9 requests and 9 times that God halted the plague on Pharaoh's promise to free Israel. How many more chances did he need? o_O

Besides, if what you say is true, then we'd expect absolutely no records whatsoever of any failure within all of Egypt's 4,000 years of history. Have you studied all of that history enough to confidently state that Egypt's records contain no mention of any of its failures?

Not necessarily. This defeat was carried out without Pharaoh even drawing a sword. He did not die valiantly in battle, but perished because of his own pride and stubbornness. He even caused the deaths of his most valued soldiers and chariots. Not exactly something for the record books.

And even if Egypt didn't record this particular defeat, we'd still expect to find a period of about... what, 30, 40, 50 years? of nothing. After all, in your argument, that particular Pharaoh was stricken from all of Egypt's historical records. There'd be a period where no records existed at all from this culture, which is reputed to have been so meticulous about such things. So, do you know of any broken lines?

Maybe not stricken from the records altogether...but perhaps given a more valiant reason for his death? We don't know more than the Bible tells us...as I said, you either accept it as the word of God or the words of men...up to you. Faith requires no evidence apart from scripture.
 
as most things from the bible there is some truth in the mighty and magical story, with that said I would say no, but I am curious as to what actually happened that eventually became this story.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Cognize and awareness are the same. Former verb and latter noun.

Is the sea aware of its awarness of itself?

One who cognises the sea is not the sea.

Better I stop here. I reiterate my original view that it is possible to part the sea.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
No you misunderstand. I was not suggesting that Pharaoh was Egypt's last god. I was saying that each one of the plagues was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods. The last god to be humiliated was Pharaoh himself. The one born to be the next Pharaoh (god) was taken away because of his failure to accede to God's request. This was after 9 requests and 9 times that God halted the plague on Pharaoh's promise to free Israel. How many more chances did he need? o_O

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

Now, I ask you this: which Gods were being humiliated?

Not necessarily. This defeat was carried out without Pharaoh even drawing a sword. He did not die valiantly in battle, but perished because of his own pride and stubbornness. He even caused the deaths of his most valued soldiers and chariots. Not exactly something for the record books.

And yet such humiliating defeats and episodes were still recorded in other nations, including Egypt. IIRC, the whole episode with Akhenaten was regarded as a complete embarassment, to the point where his son (the famous Tutankhamen) reinstated polytheism and then subsequently buried in a hastily-built tomb.

Perhaps Egypt's pride was not the sort you assume it was. Remember, by the time Moses supposedly lived, Kemet had existed for 1500 years already. In fact, the Great Pyramid of Giza would have already been built, and stood for a thousand years before Moses ever showed up.

That's a pride that can be backed. That's pride that's not easily hurt or broken by one or two failures, no matter how drastic.

Maybe not stricken from the records altogether...but perhaps given a more valiant reason for his death? We don't know more than the Bible tells us...

Yes, we do, in fact. As I keep reiterating, Egypt has a reputation for being METICULOUS. We know quite a lot about their history. Far more, in fact, than we do about the histories of several other great cultures.

Now, you posit that a "more valient reason" may have been given in these records? Then you admit that this Pharaoh in question is named in the records.

Now I challenge you: name the Pharaoh. I've named three. What have you go?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

Now, I ask you this: which Gods were being humiliated?

1) The first plague was turning the Nile River into blood. By reason of this miracle, Pharaoh and his people learned that Jehovah was superior to the Nile-god, Hapi. The death of fish in the Nile was also a blow to Egyptian religion, for certain kinds of fish were venerated.

2) Next, Jehovah brought a plague of frogs upon Egypt. This discredited the Egyptian frog-goddess, Heqt. (Exodus 8:5-14)

3) The third plague confounded the magic-practicing priests, who were unable to duplicate Jehovah’s miracle of turning dust into gnats. The Egyptian god Thoth, credited with the invention of magical arts, was unable to help those charlatans.

4) During the fourth plague, gadflies ruined the land, invaded houses, and probably swarmed through the air, which was itself an object of worship personified in the god Shu or in the goddess Isis, queen of heaven.
The Hebrew word for this insect has sometimes been rendered “gadfly,” “dog fly,” and “beetle.” (New World Translation; Septuagint; Young) If the scarab beetle was involved, the Egyptians were plagued by insects they considered sacred, and people could not have walked about without crushing them underfoot.

5) The fifth plague was a pestilence upon Egyptian livestock. This blow disgraced Hathor, Apis, and the cow-bodied sky-goddess Nut. (Exodus 9:1-7)

6) The sixth plague brought boils upon man and beast, humiliating the deities Thoth, Isis, and Ptah, wrongly accredited with healing abilities. (Exodus 9:8-11)

7) The seventh plague was heavy hail, with fire quivering among the hailstones. This blow shamed the god Reshpu, supposed master of lightning, and Thoth, said to preside over rain and thunder. (Exodus 9:22-26)

8) The eighth blow, a locust plague, showed Jehovah’s superiority over the fertility god Min, supposedly the protector of crops. (Exodus 10:12-15)

9) The ninth blow, a three-day darkness over Egypt, poured contempt on such Egyptian deities as the sun-gods Ra and Horus. (Exodus 10:21-23)

10) As already mentioned was a blow to the Pharaoh god himself...supposedly the son of Ra.

And yet such humiliating defeats and episodes were still recorded in other nations, including Egypt. IIRC, the whole episode with Akhenaten was regarded as a complete embarassment, to the point where his son (the famous Tutankhamen) reinstated polytheism and then subsequently buried in a hastily-built tomb.

Perhaps Egypt's pride was not the sort you assume it was. Remember, by the time Moses supposedly lived, Kemet had existed for 1500 years already. In fact, the Great Pyramid of Giza would have already been built, and stood for a thousand years before Moses ever showed up.

That's a pride that can be backed. That's pride that's not easily hurt or broken by one or two failures, no matter how drastic.

Egyptians were not not nice people by all accounts. Because the Hebrews were increasing in numbers, according to scripture, it was decreed that all male infants be put to death. Moses survived that threat and was raised in Pharaoh's own household. ...but he never forgot who he was. Despite justifiably killing an Egyptian guard who was beating one of his brothers, this "son of Pharaoh's daughter" would still face the death penalty and had to flee. He didn't return to Egypt for 40 years....sent by God to liberate Abraham's offspring, now perhaps numbering into the millions.

Yes, we do, in fact. As I keep reiterating, Egypt has a reputation for being METICULOUS. We know quite a lot about their history. Far more, in fact, than we do about the histories of several other great cultures.

Now, you posit that a "more valient reason" may have been given in these records? Then you admit that this Pharaoh in question is named in the records.

Now I challenge you: name the Pharaoh. I've named three. What have you go?

I was presenting a likely scenario, not a factual historical account. The Bible does not provide the detail. So I'll leave that to you.
 

user4578

Member
God parted it; even he that led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name, Isaiah 63:11-13; so yea I believe it.
 
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