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Do you believe Moses parted the Red Sea?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Does it really make a difference whether the narrative was real history or is more allegorical?

I think it does. We don't expect every element of history to be meaningful.

OTOH, in an allegory, where every element is deliberately crafted, there are no accidents or coincidences. Details aren't included unless they're significant, and everything is meaningful.

Does it really make a difference if Moses actually existed or not? or Jesus? or the Buddha? What can make a difference is if we feel that some of the morals and values that are taught can be useful to us, to our society, and/or to our world.
I'm not sure about the Buddha, but quite a bit of Jesus' teachings depend at least on the existence of the Christian God to be moral. They don't work if it's all allegory.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
1) The first plague was turning the Nile River into blood. By reason of this miracle, Pharaoh and his people learned that Jehovah was superior to the Nile-god, Hapi. The death of fish in the Nile was also a blow to Egyptian religion, for certain kinds of fish were venerated.

2) Next, Jehovah brought a plague of frogs upon Egypt. This discredited the Egyptian frog-goddess, Heqt. (Exodus 8:5-14)

3) The third plague confounded the magic-practicing priests, who were unable to duplicate Jehovah’s miracle of turning dust into gnats. The Egyptian god Thoth, credited with the invention of magical arts, was unable to help those charlatans.

4) During the fourth plague, gadflies ruined the land, invaded houses, and probably swarmed through the air, which was itself an object of worship personified in the god Shu or in the goddess Isis, queen of heaven.
The Hebrew word for this insect has sometimes been rendered “gadfly,” “dog fly,” and “beetle.” (New World Translation; Septuagint; Young) If the scarab beetle was involved, the Egyptians were plagued by insects they considered sacred, and people could not have walked about without crushing them underfoot.

5) The fifth plague was a pestilence upon Egyptian livestock. This blow disgraced Hathor, Apis, and the cow-bodied sky-goddess Nut. (Exodus 9:1-7)

6) The sixth plague brought boils upon man and beast, humiliating the deities Thoth, Isis, and Ptah, wrongly accredited with healing abilities. (Exodus 9:8-11)

7) The seventh plague was heavy hail, with fire quivering among the hailstones. This blow shamed the god Reshpu, supposed master of lightning, and Thoth, said to preside over rain and thunder. (Exodus 9:22-26)

8) The eighth blow, a locust plague, showed Jehovah’s superiority over the fertility god Min, supposedly the protector of crops. (Exodus 10:12-15)

9) The ninth blow, a three-day darkness over Egypt, poured contempt on such Egyptian deities as the sun-gods Ra and Horus. (Exodus 10:21-23)

10) As already mentioned was a blow to the Pharaoh god himself...supposedly the son of Ra.

Now, where's your source that it was these specific Gods? And why, if all this was so clear, did polytheism in Egypt continue? These Gods are still worshiped today, remember, so their power has hardly dwindled.

Egyptians were not not nice people by all accounts.

They should join the club; neither has anyone else ever been.

Because the Hebrews were increasing in numbers, according to scripture, it was decreed that all male infants be put to death.

Cite the relevant Egyptian lawbook where this was recorded, because without such a source, there's no reason to believe such a decree was ever made.

Moses survived that threat and was raised in Pharaoh's own household. ...but he never forgot who he was.

Aw... but it's a MUCH better story in Prince of Egypt when he does forget!

Despite justifiably killing an Egyptian guard who was beating one of his brothers, this "son of Pharaoh's daughter" would still face the death penalty and had to flee. He didn't return to Egypt for 40 years....sent by God to liberate Abraham's offspring, now perhaps numbering into the millions.

Wait, you weren't actually going anywhere with that? I already know the story. What's under question is its historicity.

Basically, your response to my rebuttal to your claim that they would not have recorded such humiliation, is to just retell the story. That does not do well for your argument.

I was presenting a likely scenario, not a factual historical account. The Bible does not provide the detail. So I'll leave that to you.

The Bible's scenario is not supported by any other records, including Egypt's. Therefore, its scenario and any that are derived from it is, by default, counted among the least likely by default unless extra-biblical sources can attest to the events.

Come on! Haven't you seen Prince of Egypt? There's two Pharaohs in that account: it starts with Seti as Moses' "father", and then the Pharaoh upon whom the plagues are heaped is Ramesses II, who is also Moses' "brother" in that retelling. There's two more Pharaohs I've named.

Of course, neither of them would work historically; they lived some 300 years after Moses would have been there, and Ramesses II died at the age of 90 of natural causes.



How about we take a look at the Pharaohs from the rough time period that Moses is traditionally thought to have lived?

According to Wikipedia, the traditional date of Exodus's start is 1496 BCE. That puts Moses' birth as being during the reign of Thutmose I. That means it would have been him to supposedly make the decree to kill all male infants of the Hebrews, and since he died in 1493, he would not have lived to see the plagues. Since his Wikipedia page makes no mention of such a horrible decree (and considering the vast power and popularity of Christianity, that would have been thoroughly investigated and reported upon if he did), I can safely assume he did not issue that decree.

His son, Thutmose II, succeeded him and ruled until 1479. Did he get to see the plagues? According to his Wikipedia page, he's "one of the more popular candidates for the Pharaoh of the Exodus." Despite Egypt's reputation, just reading through this article, it turns out there's comparatively very little remaining about his time as Pharaoh. He also died with no son, and was succeeded by his widow, the famous Hatshepsut.

On the other hand, despite what little there is, there's one crucial element that basically debunks the whole possibility, according to your argument. You say that Pharaoh was drowned? In that case, his body would have been lost forever. But guess what we found? Thutmose II's mummified remains in his tomb, right where it should have been. If the Exodus Pharaoh was supposed to drown in the Red/Reed Sea, that should not be there.

Which just leaves us with Hatshepsut, which is impossible because the Bible clearly calls the Pharaoh by the male pronoun, and Moses would have known that detail.

That leaves us with Thutmose III, who's firstborn son did die first. But, again, we have his mummified body. Plus, he lived a long and glorious reign, expanding the empire further than ever. I find it unlikely that someone so successful would have been so petty as to chase after a mob of escaped slaves.

So, the traditional dating of Exodus seems highly unlikely to the point of King Arthur levels of historical improbability, if we're to assume every detail recorded in the Bible to be literal historical fact. All of this is with very quick and dirty fact-checking on Wikipedia, which, if I were more inclined to dig further, is more than enough information to do just that.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Now, where's your source that it was these specific Gods? And why, if all this was so clear, did polytheism in Egypt continue?

For the same reason that people left off believing in God after the flood I suppose. Polytheism developed first after that event in ancient Babylon, according to the Bible. It is still believed and practiced to this day.

Cite the relevant Egyptian lawbook where this was recorded, because without such a source, there's no reason to believe such a decree was ever made.

No reason for you, but plenty of reason for believers. There is no one standing there with a big stick making you believe anything......yet.

Aw... but it's a MUCH better story in Prince of Egypt when he does forget!

Wait, you weren't actually going anywhere with that? I already know the story. What's under question is its historicity.

It was apparently an excuse for you to promote the Hollywood version rather than the Biblical one....to each his own.

The Bible's scenario is not supported by any other records, including Egypt's. Therefore, its scenario and any that are derived from it is, by default, counted among the least likely by default unless extra-biblical sources can attest to the events.

I don't need extra-Biblical records to support what the Bible says. I have no actual proof that God inspired the accounts in the Bible....but then, you have no proof that he didn't.

Come on! Haven't you seen Prince of Egypt? There's two Pharaohs in that account: it starts with Seti as Moses' "father", and then the Pharaoh upon whom the plagues are heaped is Ramesses II, who is also Moses' "brother" in that retelling. There's two more Pharaohs I've named.

Of course, neither of them would work historically; they lived some 300 years after Moses would have been there, and Ramesses II died at the age of 90 of natural causes.

Gotta love that Hollywood license. The truth never gets in the way of a good story. Like the movie about Noah...it starts with him quoting Genesis....hilarious! I watch them sometimes just to pick the flaws.

How about we take a look at the Pharaohs from the rough time period that Moses is traditionally thought to have lived?

According to Wikipedia, the traditional date of Exodus's start is 1496 BCE. That puts Moses' birth as being during the reign of Thutmose I. That means it would have been him to supposedly make the decree to kill all male infants of the Hebrews, and since he died in 1493, he would not have lived to see the plagues. Since his Wikipedia page makes no mention of such a horrible decree (and considering the vast power and popularity of Christianity, that would have been thoroughly investigated and reported upon if he did), I can safely assume he did not issue that decree.

His son, Thutmose II, succeeded him and ruled until 1479. Did he get to see the plagues? According to his Wikipedia page, he's "one of the more popular candidates for the Pharaoh of the Exodus." Despite Egypt's reputation, just reading through this article, it turns out there's comparatively very little remaining about his time as Pharaoh. He also died with no son, and was succeeded by his widow, the famous Hatshepsut.

On the other hand, despite what little there is, there's one crucial element that basically debunks the whole possibility, according to your argument. You say that Pharaoh was drowned? In that case, his body would have been lost forever. But guess what we found? Thutmose II's mummified remains in his tomb, right where it should have been. If the Exodus Pharaoh was supposed to drown in the Red/Reed Sea, that should not be there.

Which just leaves us with Hatshepsut, which is impossible because the Bible clearly calls the Pharaoh by the male pronoun, and Moses would have known that detail.

That leaves us with Thutmose III, who's firstborn son did die first. But, again, we have his mummified body. Plus, he lived a long and glorious reign, expanding the empire further than ever. I find it unlikely that someone so successful would have been so petty as to chase after a mob of escaped slaves.

So, the traditional dating of Exodus seems highly unlikely to the point of King Arthur levels of historical improbability, if we're to assume every detail recorded in the Bible to be literal historical fact. All of this is with very quick and dirty fact-checking on Wikipedia, which, if I were more inclined to dig further, is more than enough information to do just that.

So all this deduction helps you to arrive at what conclusion? That the events spoken about in Exodus are not true? You didn't believe it to start with so who have you convinced? Not me.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
It's a great story.
There is no proof. It's a matter of faith.
I CHOOSE to believe.
I hope it is true. It gives me more confidence when I pray of course to believe that God is going to do something incredible.

What bothers me is that he would provide all of those amazing works thousands of years ago and then not provide basic necessities for the Jews during the holocaust (and victims of other genocides) and so many other times in history.

But God also left his people enslaved ,slaughtered, and feeling abandoned a lot in the Old Testament , so ...God works in mysterious ways. ;)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think it does. We don't expect every element of history to be meaningful.

OTOH, in an allegory, where every element is deliberately crafted, there are no accidents or coincidences. Details aren't included unless they're significant, and everything is meaningful.


I'm not sure about the Buddha, but quite a bit of Jesus' teachings depend at least on the existence of the Christian God to be moral. They don't work if it's all allegory.
Why wouldn't it work if it's allegory?

Is it more important that Jesus existed or is it more important in terms of what was taught? I go for the latter because it makes not one iota of difference to me whether Jesus existed or not. If research clearly show that he didn't actually exist, would that change my life? No.

Would it for a Christian? Possibly, but I would suggest that maybe they should more go by what he supposedly said versus whether he was an actual historical figure that's depicted accurately. As it is, there's literally no way we can tell whether the authors of the gospels and epistles actually got much of anything right. Scriptures are highly subjective, so taking them literally and believing that they're inerrant makes for no logical sense whatsoever.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But God also left his people enslaved ,slaughtered, and feeling abandoned a lot in the Old Testament , so ...God works in mysterious ways. ;)
But please do realize that this is "the glass half-empty" version.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Is it more important that Jesus existed or is it more important in terms of what was taught? I go for the latter because it makes not one iota of difference to me whether Jesus existed or not. If research clearly show that he didn't actually exist, would that change my life? No.

To me this is the obvious answer. Take the lessons of Jesus and throw out the insistence on the literal stuff. In my opinion no one in their right minds should believe in things like Moses literally using a magic wand to carve a hallway through an ocean. If you believe that really happened you're functioning outside of what most people see as reality. Ditto the giant zoo-boat, the rising dead, the 7-headed dragon, the talking snakes and bushes, and all the other very obviously untrue things.

The problem with this from the religious standpoint is twofold. One, if the stories are allegory then the "greatest story ever told" becomes just another story in an endless see of moral lessons. I could just as easily derive my morality from Yoda as I could from Jesus.

The second problem is, other than morality, the main reason cling to religion is fear of death/desire to exist forever. If these stories are just tales, everything unravels and there is no real Heaven. Heaven can't be allegory, it has to be real or it does nothing to quell the panic about one's eventual demise.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The problem with this from the religious standpoint is twofold. One, if the stories are allegory then the "greatest story ever told" becomes just another story in an endless see of moral lessons. I could just as easily derive my morality from Yoda as I could from Jesus.
But why is that a problem? What the vast majority of us tend to do is to read what's written and then make our choices as to whether to follow suit or not. For just one example, the vast majority of Catholics virtually ignore the church's dictates on birth control, and most people in most churches ignore Jesus' prohibition on the use of deadly force.

The second problem is, other than morality, the main reason cling to religion is fear of death/desire to exist forever. If these stories are just tales, everything unravels and there is no real Heaven. Heaven can't be allegory, it has to be real or it does nothing to quell the panic about one's eventual demise.
Heaven and reincarnation/rebirth are beliefs not actually necessitated by a belief in God(s), although it usually is. Buddhist dharma is an example of a non-theistic approach whereas rebirth is believed likely.

Secondly, I am not saying nor implying that all that we read in the scriptures is somehow wrong, only that the vast majority of it simply cannot be verified.

Thirdly, even in Jesus' case, he supposedly said that he came to serve, not to be served. IOW, it's "the message". But, as Gandhi said, how many "elevated the man and forgot his message".
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
But why is that a problem? What the vast majority of us tend to do is to read what's written and then make our choices as to whether to follow suit or not. For just one example, the vast majority of Catholics virtually ignore the church's dictates on birth control, and most people in most churches ignore Jesus' prohibition on the use of deadly force.

Not to mention the "give everything you have to the poor" bit. Jesus was a damn dirty socialist! ;)

Kidding aside, It's a good point. But in my experience for many Christians the aspects of Christian morality that they DO follow need to "come from" somewhere. The criticism I hear most about other value systems is that it's subjective, that people can just make up any old thing and call it moral. You hear this a lot from the anti-gay crowd who believe the shift towards acceptance of homosexuality isn't "right" because it's not the original way God set it in stone.

If there is nothing "real" about it, if there is no almighty rule-setter, then they would be forced to admit their values are just as subjective as everyone else's, and then the whole thing loses a certain level of power.

Heaven and reincarnation/rebirth are beliefs not actually necessitated by a belief in God(s), although it usually is. Buddhist dharma is an example of a non-theistic approach whereas rebirth is believed likely.

Again, very true, there are many ways to hold a belief in some sort of afterlife without a traditional God. But I find a strange thing happens to most religious people when they are asked to consider the literal truth (or not) of their faith. What happens in my experience is they consider two possibilities...their faith is correct and true, or the atheist version of "nothing" is true. I don't find too many Christians who think "well gee, if Heaven isn't real, maybe the Hindus have it right and we get reincarnated over and over." I think they tend to think either Heaven yes, or Heaven no in which case, nothing.

Either way, if their notion of Heaven isn't taken as literally true, the comforting notion of the afterlife is certainly thrown for a loop. IMO this is why many people insist on the literal truth of the whole story. Start saying things aren't really true and things unravel.
 

First Baseman

Retired athlete
But why is that a problem? What the vast majority of us tend to do is to read what's written and then make our choices as to whether to follow suit or not. For just one example, the vast majority of Catholics virtually ignore the church's dictates on birth control, and most people in most churches ignore Jesus' prohibition on the use of deadly force.

The vast majority of Catholics... what? How do you substantiate a claim like that? There is no way the vast majority of Catholics ignore the Church's dictates on birth control, I sure don't see that happening.

Does Jesus issue a prohibition on the use of deadly force? Seriously, if He does I would like to know which verse it is that you are referring to.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Yes, no , maybe so?

Wish I could edit this and start a poll.

Technically, God did -but yes, I do believe it happened.

More impressive is keeping the sun in the same place in the sky for an extra hour -which I also believe happened.

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Jos 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

"Miraculous" things do not always support belief in God, however.
There are many strange things happening these days which cause people to follow or believe in other things (witchcraft, sorcery, false religion) -mostly quietly, though widespread -but things will continue to become more strange -and more apparent to many.

When considering what is possible, I think of all that has transpired and may transpire... and that manipulation of such is really just a matter of interface.
Even mankind is now able to do things which were once considered "godlike".
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The vast majority of Catholics... what? How do you substantiate a claim like that? There is no way the vast majority of Catholics ignore the Church's dictates on birth control, I sure don't see that happening.

Does Jesus issue a prohibition on the use of deadly force? Seriously, if He does I would like to know which verse it is that you are referring to.
Surveys of Catholics have that number in the upper 90% range here in the States.

As for the latter question, do no harm to those who wish to harm you; be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves; those who live by the sword die by the sword; etc. In the very early church, members of the Way could not belong to the military or any policing body because of this. Augustine and Aquinas struggled with this themselves because of what's found in the scriptures.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
sorry I'm late.....did anyone make notice?

the story speaks of a pursuit....
the escape route was open for a short while....
the army in pursuit drowned when the escape route closed.

besides the scripture account....is there another source?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
and why would there be a long standing Sabbath to recall an event that never happened?
especially if that high Sabbath is to recall the important Prophet in that account
 
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