Do you believe that Islam is a fair and just religion?

[TashaN]

The fact that making it a theocracy destroys that capacity.

I really don't like to call it a theocracy, you rather should call it the democracy of that time, but it's a special type of democracy called shura.

I can't think of a single one that wasn't abusive. Can you?

The thing is (trying to get away from politics, here) that the real measure of a movement is what happens when it's in power.

Exactly! What Muslims did when Jews were living with them? they weren't only tolerant, and they didn't only protect them with their lives from internal and external enemies, but they also allowed them to advance in high positions in the government. When it comes to the scholars level, Jews were co-authors with many Muslim scholars and they were sharing knowledge. Then when Spain fell, both, Jews and Muslims fled together from Christian systematic persecution.

what do you call that? something which happened way before developing modern thoughts about tolerance, democracy and equality.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I have been away. Why does not Islam want freedom of speech or freedom of expression? What happens to those who evolve into another religion and renounce Islam for another belief? Why do women have less rights than men in Islam. Why are Quranists rejected by most of the Muslim world as being true Muslims? Why are women not allowed more than one husband while men are allowed more than one wife. If you are born into Islam, why are you not allowed to leave it without penality? Fair and just means equality and freedom of speech. Islam is not that.

I think i have responded to these questions in the OP and other responses within the first few pages. I guess you didnt read either.

 

[Storm]

I really don't like to call it a theocracy, you rather should call it the democracy of that time, but it's a special type of democracy called shura.




Exactly! What Muslims did when Jews were living with them? they weren't only tolerant, and they didn't only protect them with their lives from internal and external enemies, but they also allowed them to advance in high positions in the government. When it comes to the scholars level, Jews were co-authors with many Muslim scholars and they were sharing knowledge. Then when Spain fell, both, Jews and Muslims fled together from Christian systematic persecution.

what do you call that? something which happened way before developing modern thoughts about tolerance, democracy and equality.

Until the whole founding of Israel thing.

 

[beenie]

i would be interested to see the actual statistics for muslims worldwide because there are many muslims in australia who do practice polygamy even though its illegal here.

what are the chances of jumping in a random taxi in australia and the driver is muslim and has 5 wives? If only 2% of muslims in the world practiced polygamy, the chances of that happening would be so minute it would be unlikely because we only have less then 400,000 muslims here in austrlia. But its not.

Aside from the fact that Muslim men are limited to 4 wives (and even that is controversial), are you saying that there is a high percentage of Muslims practicing polygyny in Australia? Can you provide statistics please?

imo, polygamy makes adultery legal. So there is no difference. Its still a married man having sex with multiple partners.

I'm not going to entirely disagree here. The laws of polygyny have been horribly abused by many (most) Muslims today.

the only real difference is that the first wife cannot divorce a muslim husband for doing so. And i think that is far worse then finding out your husband has been cheating and having the freedom to divorce him for his unfaithfulness (or vise verse if it was the wife cheating)

Yes it is progress that the marriage can be ended for such a crime. Even Gods word says that an unfaithful marriage mate can be divorced legally and in Gods eyes the marriage is ended. If God approves of such divorces, its because he does not condone adultery. The unfaithful mate has committed a grave sin in Gods eyes.

Bleeep! Wrong answer. Women can put a clause in their marriage contract that she will not remain in a polygamous marriage, and if he decides to take another wife, she will be granted a divorce. In addition, she can divorce him for marrying another wife as well.

I'm not claiming it's ideal and practiced correctly, but the rights ARE there.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Islam is not fair and just simply because it does not tolerate the beliefs, practices, and laws of others who believe differently than themselves. That is very simply put. It needs no other explaination.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Al-Qur'an 2:256)

 

[loverOfTruth]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Islam. I have been told many many times that I know nothing about Islam, even when quoting what appeared to be rather 'official' stances about certain ambiguous passages of the Quran.

In saying that, a fair number if adherents themselves seem to be rather confused about what a lot of thing mean within Islam, so what chance do the rest of us have?

Show me a group of people who doesn't disagree on anything they believe in/work for etc. - be it a religious group, work group, scientist or what not.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Islam in and of itself cannot provide justice. It is people who create justice through reason and a sense of fairness. As to date, I don't believe we have completed this process nor that it has been perfectly codified into any single ancient text. It's not our abstract beliefs, but rather our actions that define us. I don't give credit to Muhammad, or Jesus, or God whenever someone performs a virtuous action. The beauty of their virtue belongs to them.

If you leave it up to people, it will always be subjective (to some death sentence for a crime is perfectly just and fair and yet to some it is not)- objective morality can only be from God.

 

[Storm]

TashaN, please don't think I'm being contrary. I recognize that Islam has a glorious history, for much of which it was actually considerably MORE egalitarian than the Christianity of the day (can't speak as to Judaism), and have often pointed that out to bashers.

That said, for purposes of this thread I (and, I gather, the op) am not interested in the Islam of centuries ago. Now is a much more pressing concern, don't you agree?

 

[loverOfTruth]

TashaN, please don't think I'm being contrary. I recognize that Islam has a glorious history, for much of which it was actually considerably MORE egalitarian than the Christianity of the day (can't speak as to Judaism), and have often pointed that out to bashers.

That said, for purposes of this thread I (and, I gather, the op) am not interested in the Islam of centuries ago. Now is a much more pressing concern, don't you agree?

Sorry I was out for few days...is this about 'religious tolerance' in Islam ?

 

[Storm]

Sorry I was out for few days...is this about 'religious tolerance' in Islam ?

Mostly, yeah. That and treatment of women are my main objections to the modern state of affairs.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Mostly, yeah. That and treatment of women are my main objections to the modern state of affairs.

Thanks. For the issue of 'apostasy' see my response to #2 and for some women's issues please read this :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3073369-post16.html

I'll reply to the general issue later.

 

[Storm]

Thanks. For the issue of 'apostasy' see my response to #2 and for some women's issues please read this :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3073369-post16.html

I'll reply to the general issue later.

I don't agree that any of those things are "fair and just."

Granted, they were progressive... a thousand years ago. However, in the modern world, most of them are slaps in the face of human rights.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I don't agree that any of those things are "fair and just."

Granted, they were progressive... a thousand years ago. However, in the modern world, most of them are slaps in the face of human rights.

Then you probably didn't read the entire responses. Women in the west are relentlessly treated like nothing more than pieces of meat, presented as objects for the mindless consumption of the viewers, and for the financial gain of the industries behind sexist marketing tactics - that is the greatest violation of Women's Rights under the camouflage of freedom in the 21st Century.

 

[Storm]

Then you probably didn't read the entire responses. Women in the west are relentlessly treated like nothing more than pieces of meat, presented as objects for the mindless consumption of the viewers, and for the financial gain of the industries behind sexist marketing tactics - that is the greatest violation of Women's Rights under the camouflage of freedom in the 21st Century.

"You do it, too" is not a defense.

ETA: Also, it depends on the media. Many genres tend to treat men worse.

 

[loverOfTruth]

"You do it, too" is not a defense.

ETA: Also, it depends on the media. Many genres tend to treat men worse.

I did not say that. My response was 'You do it not Us' .
Islam protects women's rights and protects them from being abused like in the West. Now I wouldn't claim that some Muslims don't abuse the Islamic system and violate Women's rights but that is not Islamic.

 

[Storm]

I did not say that. My response was 'You do it not Us' .
Islam protects women's rights and protects them from being abused like in the West. Now I wouldn't claim that some Muslims don't abuse the Islamic system and violate Women's rights but that is not Islamic.

Ah, No True Scotsman. Yeah, that's worse.

Is it an abuse of Islam for a woman's testimony to be worth half a man's?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I did not say that. My response was 'You do it not Us' .
Islam protects women's rights and protects them from being abused like in the West. Now I wouldn't claim that some Muslims don't abuse the Islamic system and violate Women's rights but that is not Islamic.

So the West treats women like meat and Muslims treat women like children.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Ah, No True Scotsman. Yeah, that's worse.

Is it an abuse of Islam for a woman's testimony to be worth half a man's?

Please read the explanation I already gave on this.

 

[Storm]

So the West treats women like meat and Muslims treat women like children.

Not to mention, the West treats men the same way. That's what happens when 90% of the media panders to the lowest common denominator.

But at least I don't have to worry about being publicly flogged for being raped.

 

[Storm]

Please read the explanation I already gave on this.

It's a simple question: yes or no?