Do you believe that Islam is a fair and just religion?

[Storm]

How do you know that Islam doesn't?

Let's not be disingenuous here. Whether the cause is theological, cultural, or a blend, Islam has a terrible record when it comes to religious tolerance.

 

[TashaN]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Islam. I have been told many many times that I know nothing about Islam, even when quoting what appeared to be rather 'official' stances about certain ambiguous passages of the Quran.

In saying that, a fair number if adherents themselves seem to be rather confused about what a lot of thing mean within Islam, so what chance do the rest of us have?

Sometimes i even learn from non-Muslims about certain aspects in my religion which i was not able to see before. Maybe because they can look at it from a different angle than mine! Where is the shame on that? By the way, I don't see any Muslim scholars around here, darkendless, so i don't know why it's so hard to believe that many Muslims don't know that much about their religion!

Islam in and of itself cannot provide justice. It is people who create justice through reason and a sense of fairness. As to date, I don't believe we have completed this process nor that it has been perfectly codified into any single ancient text. It's not our abstract beliefs, but rather our actions that define us. I don't give credit to Muhammad, or Jesus, or God whenever someone performs a virtuous action. The beauty of their virtue belongs to them.

I partially agree with you. While i also believe that it's our actions that counts, i don't agree that Mohamed or Jesus has no effect at all.

Do you underestimate the power of a role model, the power of inspiration?

Jesus, Mohamed and others inspire their followers to do goodness so how you aint giving them any credit for that?

 

[TashaN]

Let's not be disingenuous here. Whether the cause is theological, cultural, or a blend, Islam has a terrible record when it comes to religious tolerance.

And how far does this record goes? Please don't tell me you are judging a religion which started 1400 years a go just by the actions of some Muslims in the last century?!

EDIT: What is the criterion by which a religion may be judged whether it's tolerant or not?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Throwing your best two difficult questions huh?! I honestly don't know the answer to the first question because i myself sometimes wonder whether God exist or it's simply the biggest deception of all times. For now i just feel he might actually exist and i'm still studying in order to KNOW more. For me, most of the time i just wonder if there is a proof that he does NOT exist rather than a proof that he DOES, and if we assume that he DOES exist, so who is this god whom we are trying so hard to prove that he exist?

Do we know the definition of God? I bet each and every member in this forum will has his/her own definition of God, so your question is difficult to answer as it's, not for not being able to prove God's existence, but rather for simply not being able to know WHAT to prove!

Have you ever read something on the Critique of Pure Reason? It's very interesting.

Critique of Pure Reason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding the second question, it's less problematic than the first one. Most of Muslim scholars says that if the message didn't reach to a person then definitely that doesn't mean he rejected it, then they differ on how to define a person whom the message didn't reach him since a person might actually hear of the message but didn't comprehend or maybe have not been convinced that it's the truth. That's why at the end you see scholars having to agree that Allah knows best on how to judge people based on their heart and their intentions rather on their current state.

Hmmmm, isn't this off-topic? do you want to continue this discussion in another thread since it will only drag this thread out of what it meant to be, i reckon.

I have a lot to say about this, so yes, I'd rather we start a new topic as to not derail this one.

Either of us can do it, too.

 

[gnomon]

I don't drink Islam is fair and just but it might just be just and fair.

 

[Storm]

And how far does this record goes? Please don't tell me you are judging a religion which started 1400 years a go just by the actions of some Muslims in the last century?!

Do you think it's reasonable to dismiss the fact that it's morally stagnant, at best?

The thing is, there was a time when you could claim relative tolerance - that time has passed. As you alluded yourself, it's been at least a hundred years since you made a good impression, collectively speaking.

That said, I don't think the problem is with Islam itself so much as theocracy. That never ends well.

 

[Storm]

EDIT: What is the criterion by which a religion may be judged whether it's tolerant or not?

AHA! I catch your ninja edit!

It's really very simple: tolerance is gauged by treatment of outsiders and dissidents.

 

[gnomon]

And how far does this record goes? Please don't tell me you are judging a religion which started 1400 years a go just by the actions of some Muslims in the last century?!

EDIT: What is the criterion by which a religion may be judged whether it's tolerant or not?

The criterion is by the people who practice it.

Which leaves us with millions of different religions to judge.

I'd sooner watch back to back Kardashians than do that much judging.

I have a hard enough time dressing myself in the morning.

 

[TashaN]

I have a lot to say about this, so yes, I'd rather we start a new topic as to not derail this one.

Either of us can do it, too.

Well, i did attempt to voice my thoughts about your questions, so it's fair now to give you the chance to have a say on what i wrote. I'll be waiting for you to gather your thoughts and unleash it in a new thread.

 

[Straw Dog]

I partially agree with you. While i also believe that it's our actions that counts, i don't agree that Mohamed or Jesus has no effect at all.

Do you underestimate the power of a role model, the power of inspiration?

Jesus, Mohamed and others inspire their followers to do goodness so how you aint giving them any credit for that?

No, that's a fair point. Role models may serve as examples of exemplary human beings.

Let me expand in a different direction. Besides the famous religious founders, there have been many exemplary human beings. We may only be aware of people like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, etc. but most enlightened individuals have been unknown. There's a guy down the street with the heart of a saint and the track record to prove it and yet he will never be known in history. Contrary to opposing historical representations of virtuous conduct, I would only recommend not limiting ourselves to them when there are plenty of living examples among us to draw from in the present day.

 

[darkendless]

Sometimes i even learn from non-Muslims about certain aspects in my religion which i was not able to see before. Maybe because they can look at it from a different angle than mine! Where is the shame on that? By the way, I don't see any Muslim scholars around here, darkendless, so i don't know why it's so hard to believe that many Muslims don't know that much about their religion!

No shame at all mate, just simply saying that an 'understanding' of Islam seems very difficult to achieve. As a non-muslim, I feel that many times I can ask a question and get many answers.

Given that it seems (I could be wrong) more difficult to form an understanding of Islam, i'd be worried that as an adherant to the religion that i'd be doing something wrong because I didn't know about the sin/law/rule. Does it trouble you at all, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[credance]

I assume you are referring to the fact that muslims call themselves Slave of God. With that in mind, I would say sure it is fair. I would absolutely be willing to be an obedient servant of God doing good and avoiding evil in this transient world in return for an Eternal bliss in paradise. You must have heard of comp-time except the reward there is not infinite, where as for us the reward is Eternal.

"One should not confuse the negative connotations of servitude that people have come to understand. We can have a wonderful relationship with the Almighty if we stand firm in our beliefs and do as He wants, which is all good things. Remember that we have the choice of doing good or bad, slaves do not." [Taken from : Slaves of God [6484] -Overview of Islam - Understanding Islam ]

So yes, it is fair to be the Servant/Slave of the Almighty God.

As a slave of God you must be willing to do what He asks no matter the consequences. But who is telling you what God asks of you? Mohammed has not spoken in almost fourteen hundred years and he was the last prophet of God.
Why would God not talk to us again? Why would He leave us still trying to interpret the words of one man for fourteen hundred years and has not talked to anyone that intimate since?
I hope there can be peace in the Muslim world.
It might help if they did not treat this life so transient, waiting for the other side.
Now is the only time that exist. Paradise may await you. Or not.
Sometimes people are given an express ticket to hell when there is a witness who testifies that someone has desecrated the Koran or insulted Muhammed.
What's the rush, hell is supposed to be for eternity?

 

[TashaN]

Do you think it's reasonable to dismiss the fact that it's morally stagnant, at best?

Well, when it comes to morality, i'll have to pass since i'm still learning about morality and how to define it. I was struggling with some thoughts regarding morality a while back and i'm still not satisfied.

If you are interested, you may read some of my thoughts on morality in the thread below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...790-where-do-atheists-seculars-get-their.html

The thing is, there was a time when you could claim relative tolerance - that time has passed. As you alluded yourself, it's been at least a hundred years since you made a good impression, collectively speaking.

That said, I don't think the problem is with Islam itself so much as theocracy. That never ends well.

That's why we have to distinguish between Islam as a religion, and those who adhere and practice this religion. Many Muslims abuse their power, statues, etc and they use religion to concur the masses, but this is not Islam's fault but rather, some Muslims' fault.

I also think you are wise enough to know that just because many Muslims are currently in a miserable state, that doesn't mean in anyway that they can't wake up, that's if they didn't do so already.

I myself witnessed alot of changes in Muslims attitude and now people are rising from living with fear and confusion in the dark, to living in a light of openness and knowledge.

AHA! I catch your ninja edit!

It's really very simple: tolerance is gauged by treatment of outsiders and dissidents.

Ok, i'm not fully satisfied with this answer but it can be a start before going deeper. Can you swim?

As a start, let's say we are judging a nation which claim to be a Muslim with another one which adhere to a different religion.

Please remember, we are talking about religions here, and hence the question of this thread "Do you believe that Islam is a fair and just religion?"

So when we do a comparison, we have to compare between nations which upheld its religions as the source of laws, treatment of others, etc. Got what i mean?

So our job here is to find ANY country which claim that its religion is the source of its laws and all aspects of life and compare it with a Muslim one.

I prefer to use for the purpose of this discussion Muslim countries in the past, not these days, for reasons i may reveal later on, maybe in this thread or in a separate one.

The criterion is by the people who practice it.

Which leaves us with millions of different religions to judge.

I'd sooner watch back to back Kardashians than do that much judging.

I have a hard enough time dressing myself in the morning.

People judge religions by seeing other people behavior and practice, that's true, but it's also inaccurate to do so because some people might not represent the majority of those who adhere to that religion, right?

 

[Storm]

Well, when it comes to morality, i'll have to pass since i'm still learning about morality and how to define it. I was struggling with some thoughts regarding morality a while back and i'm still not satisfied.

If you are interested, you may read some of my thoughts on morality in the thread below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...790-where-do-atheists-seculars-get-their.html



That's why we have to distinguish between Islam as a religion, and those who adhere and practice this religion. Many Muslims abuse their power, statues, etc and they use religion to concur the masses, but this is not Islam's fault but rather, some Muslims' fault.

I also think you are wise enough to know that just because many Muslims are currently in a miserable state, that doesn't mean in anyway that they can't wake up, that's if they didn't do so already.

I myself witnessed alot of changes in Muslims attitude and now people are rising from living with fear and confusion in the dark, to living in a light of openness and knowledge.



Ok, i'm not fully satisfied with this answer but it can be a start before going deeper. Can you swim?

As a start, let's say we are judging a nation which claim to be a Muslim with another one which adhere to a different religion.

Please remember, we are talking about religions here, and hence the question of this thread "Do you believe that Islam is a fair and just religion?"

So when we do a comparison, we have to compare between nations which upheld its religions as the source of laws, treatment of others, etc. Got what i mean?

So our job here is to find ANY country which claim that its religion is the source of its laws and all aspects of life and compare it with a Muslim one.

I prefer to use for the purpose of this discussion Muslim countries in the past, not these days, for reasons i may reveal later on, maybe in this thread or in a separate one.



People judge religions by seeing other people behavior and practice, that's true, but it's also inaccurate to do so because some people might not represent the majority of those who adhere to that religion, right?

Sweetie, I could go through this line by line, but the essence of every point would be the same: in the case of theocracy, religion cannot be separated from government. It's kinda the definition.

While you're right that the ideal way to judge Islam as it is now would be to compare Islamic theocracies to someone else's... as far as I'm aware there simply aren't any others. They're all long overthrown. And good riddance.

 

[TashaN]

No, that's a fair point. Role models may serve as examples of exemplary human beings.

Let me expand in a different direction. Besides the famous religious founders, there have been many exemplary human beings. We may only be aware of people like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, etc. but most enlightened individuals have been unknown. There's a guy down the street with the heart of a saint and the track record to prove it and yet he will never be known in history. Contrary to opposing historical representations of virtuous conduct, I would only recommend not limiting ourselves to them when there are plenty of living examples among us to draw from in the present day.

I agree with you. There are alot of unknown exemplary human beings. Human beings actions can even surprise God!

As there is no limit for the evil which people can commit, i also believe that there is no limit to the great things human beings can do in regardless of their beliefs.

No shame at all mate, just simply saying that an 'understanding' of Islam seems very difficult to achieve. As a non-muslim, I feel that many times I can ask a question and get many answers.

What many people don't know is that Muslims are not obsessed with what is halal and what is haram in their daily life. We are normal human beings who go to work, go out and have fun, do sports, etc. Only from a time to another we might encounter a situation where we might have to read in our religious texts looking for answers. But when it comes to laws and regulations we always refer to scholars, judges, etc.

I'll give you an example, let's say someone has somehow broke the law. In the US for instance, you will find that this person is guilty in one state and not guilty in another based on the rules and regulations suitable for that particular state. Even worse than that, a court might decide something, and another might decide something else in the same state.

The same thing with Islam, having in mind more than one billion Muslim around the world, it's more about the openness and diversity, than about confusion as you suspected.

One ruling might be applicable or acceptable in one Muslim state, but not another. There are so many schools of thoughts in Islam and they all agree to disagree on many issues simply because it's ok in Islam to disagree on so many branches of knowledge. No one will be confused about God, or about Prophets, angels, etc, but they might differ about other things which might be ok to differ about, or, it might be something which irrelevant to their daily life that they would simply try to pick an answer for you from a book or a scholar.

This should be for Islam, not against! I hope you got what i mean mate.

Given that it seems (I could be wrong) more difficult to form an understanding of Islam, i'd be worried that as an adherant to the religion that i'd be doing something wrong because I didn't know about the sin/law/rule. Does it trouble you at all, if you don't mind me asking?

Not at all. If Muslims have done something out of ignorance then they will not be held accountable for it. Even Prophet Mohamed himself was discouraging people from asking lots of questions about how to do certain things, when to do, etc, and he would rather advice them to just do it the way they see fit. He was afraid he would advice them to do it in a specific way then to become a burden on them.

 

[TashaN]

Sweetie, I could go through this line by line, but the essence of every point would be the same: in the case of theocracy, religion cannot be separated from government. It's kinda the definition.

And what's wrong with that if the political aspects of such a religion was wide open for interpretation and for reformation when it's necessary in order to adapt with changes in an evolving world.

While you're right that the ideal way to judge Islam as it is now would be to compare Islamic theocracies to someone else's... as far as I'm aware there simply aren't any others. They're all long overthrown. And good riddance.

You can compare it then with one in the past. Any?

 

[Straw Dog]

I agree with you. There are alot of unknown exemplary human beings. Human beings actions can even surprise God!

As there is no limit for the evil which people can commit, i also believe that there is no limit to the great things human beings can do in regardless of their beliefs.

So essentially you're saying that human nature has limitless potential. I get the sense that you have some valuable insight to offer in the evolution of your faith. I don't see this so much as as an affirmation for any particular Islamic institutions as I do for the ability of the human spirit to transcend the status quo.

 

[Storm]

And what's wrong with that if the political aspects of such a religion was wide open for interpretation and for reformation when it's necessary in order to adapt with changes in an evolving world.

The fact that making it a theocracy destroys that capacity.

You can compare it then with one in the past. Any?

I can't think of a single one that wasn't abusive. Can you?

The thing is (trying to get away from politics, here) that the real measure of a movement is what happens when it's in power.

 

[mestupid]

I have been away. Why does not Islam want freedom of speech or freedom of expression? What happens to those who evolve into another religion and renounce Islam for another belief? Why do women have less rights than men in Islam. Why are Quranists rejected by most of the Muslim world as being true Muslims? Why are women not allowed more than one husband while men are allowed more than one wife. If you are born into Islam, why are you not allowed to leave it without penality? Fair and just means equality and freedom of speech. Islam is not that.

 

[TashaN]

So essentially you're saying that human nature has limitless potential. I get the sense that you have some valuable insight to offer in the evolution of your faith. I don't see this so much as as an affirmation for any particular Islamic institutions as I do for the ability of the human spirit to transcend the status quo.

Thank you for the praise, but what i mentioned is not something which i came up with out of the blue. It stem from the rich Islamic heritage we have and contrary to what is known of Muslims, many institutions really excelled at various fields of knowledge and philosophy was on top of the list.

Some examples from the past is:
House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also please read:
Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Wisdom Fund - Islam's Contribution To Europe's Renaissance