Do you believe that Islam is a fair and just religion?

[Me Myself]

What is eternity? Eternity (or forever) is endless time, but what is time? and is the time in this life the same as on the hereafter?

What is hell like?

Our reasoning seems to be immature and childish at its best when we don't know the essence of the terms we are trying to discuss. Most of the terms people use stem from their inherited or early acquired religious background instead of a pure reasoning based on new findings and accurate independant terms.

What are the Qranic verses on the subject of hell? dont they say for ever?

If people were completely unable to understand what "for ever time" meant, then the God was extra stupid to put it on the book, knowing full well people would have no idea what he is talking about there.

 

[FearGod]

True. God doesn't need us, but we need and seek him. Some believe in him, and some they don't, but everyone eventually believe in something they upheld very close to their heart similar to what a religious person does because this is how God created us. We always chase after something in our life in regardless of what it is.

Maybe because you didn't experience what others did, that's why you don't understand how can someone adhere to a religion without feeling it's absolutely the right one 100%.

Sometimes we just see something to be the best thing available to us, but it's not necessary that we are convinced 100% that we will never ever have something better in the future!

you don't have to judge people because you didn't enter to their heart.

That's similar when Muslims were at war with the non-Muslims and it was well known that any who claim to be a Muslim shall be spared. So one of the non-muslim wariors said the shahada but a muslim killed him because it seemed to him it was not a *sincere belief in God* but out of fear, so when he came back Prophet Mohamed scolded him and asked him if he could see what is inside the heart of that man!!!

Likewise, just because something doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean it's nonsense.

My friend we choose our religion according to our beliefs,you can never ever separate religion and belief.

Just to make it easier for you to understand,let us have an example.

One person believe that god doesn't exist,so according to his belief he chose Islam.
So according to his belief he chose Islam,do that make sense to you.

My friend what you belief is what your religion is and even without calling it's name.

if someone is skeptic about his belief then he can choose his religion as "none" till he is sure what he wanted to be,i don't agree that religion should be forced to or to be by compulsion

YOUR religion and YOUR belief are not the same brother. When it comes to religion, i disagree with you because you are not a scholar and you are not authorized to speak for the religion. you can only state your beliefs only which can be right or wrong as you know. Even scholars fear to give fatwa and they might say i don't know, how about you.

No my friend,i disagree with you %100.
There are many scholars and there are many fatwas,so your point here is silly.

Do you want me to follow some scholar's fatwas to kill disbelievers and do you think such scholars are good muslims just because they are scholars and we should listen to them.
i am sorry my friend,but i hope you read more about Islam,even if we are muslims,we should always seek knoweldge about our religion based on our holy book which is the best we have than any scholar whom may guide you to the wrong path.

i aint against scholars here,but i am againt to regard them the only one whom allowed to speak about religion and that we should listen to them as if they are angels

While you can discuss simple matters, but i really don't trust that you can be well equipped to *debate* HOW should a muslim believe. You should rather discuss ideas instead of teaching Muslims how they should practice their religion or how to be true Muslims.

i didn't understand your point,ilucidate please


Quoted by FearGod

Lo! thou (O Muhammad) guidest not whom thou lovest, but Allah guideth whom He will. And He is Best Aware of those who walk aright. (28:56)

Replied by TashaN
Yes, Allah, not us. [/quote]

My Reply

Sorry that you don't even understand what the actual tafseer of the verse,i don't know if you understand it according to one of your favourite scholars,then it is your choice.

But it isn't as you think that god is the one who made one to be a muslim or a one to be an atheist,so according to this logic we haven't to blame an atheist because god chose him to be so.

it is the way we want to be that god guide us to,according to our searching for him that god may guide us,but if you won't reach him,then he won't reach you,so if the person have the will,then god will guide him to Islam.

It was narrated from the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- in similar terms that Allah Almighty and Exalted said: "If My servant comes near Me one hand-span I come near him one cubit. If he comes near Me one cubit I come near him an arm's length. If he comes to Me walking, I come to him running."

 

[Pegg]

polygamy in the ancient world was probably a good answer to a real problem.

but in todays world, women do not need men to survive. They are free to work, to earn a living and support themselves. There is even financial support for single mothers these days. Back in Mohammads day, that was not the case.

The fact that Islam holds onto such ideals from the past makes it a non-progressive religion. For that reason, in terms of its ideals, i dont think it is a fair and just religion. But I do agree with its moral laws because they are based on Gods Word the bible.

 

[TashaN]

What are the Qranic verses on the subject of hell? dont they say for ever?

If people were completely unable to understand what "for ever time" meant, then the God was extra stupid to put it on the book, knowing full well people would have no idea what he is talking about there.

Not everyone who deserve to enter hell will stay there forever. Some will stay there forever, so it depends.

 

[loverOfTruth]

polygamy in the ancient world was probably a good answer to a real problem.

And that is why I clearly mentioned in the OP that Polygamy has been made permissible and not Commanded in Islam and that even with strict rules to protect the women. And that's why only less than 2% of Muslim marriages are polygamous.

but in todays world, women do not need men to survive. They are free to work, to earn a living and support themselves. There is even financial support for single mothers these days. Back in Mohammads day, that was not the case.

Actually, for that matter, no body needs no body to survive - God suffices for everyone. Plus, Islam doesn't forbid women to work. But then according to your line of thought, there is no need for marriage at all - doesn't matter monogamous or polygamous. That's not what we are discussing here. If you want single women to stay single for the rest of their life, that's fine - but we obviously see benefit in marriage - otherwise it wouldn't have been commanded by God.

The fact that Islam holds onto such ideals from the past makes it a non-progressive religion. For that reason, in terms of its ideals, i dont think it is a fair and just religion.

It is true that Muslims like to keep Islam pure as it was revealed/commanded by God 1400 years ago unlike some other people who keeps changing God's laws and ends up with a completely different religion than what God sent.

But I wouldn't exactly call it 'progressive'. As stated in the OP, the western society where polygamy(mutually agreed upon relationship with full responsibility) is 'illegal' and cheating(breaking covenant, without any responsibility and often involves lustful desire) with your spouse is not - does not seem to be standing for freedom and rights of the one who is wronged. In fact, it is a major problem in the western world. In US alone, it is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals engage in infidelity. And these numbers are probably on the conservative side given that 50% of all marriages that end in divorce are due to infidelity. You call that 'progress' ? Fine, your choice. I say you are directionally challenged (like the new map app in Iphone 5 which has problem with north/south ) who cannot distinguish between 'progress' and 'downfall'.

But I do agree with its moral laws because they are based on Gods Word the bible.

Yes, it is true that the moral laws in Islam(as described in the Qur'an) are Gods Words and hence some of them can be found in the Bible as well (since we believe in the same God). But as you know we do not believe the Entire modern day bible to be the word of God. It has lots of sayings of Jesus(pbuh) and not to mention other humans unlike the Qur'an.

 

[TashaN]

My friend we choose our religion according to our beliefs,you can never ever separate religion and belief.

Just to make it easier for you to understand,let us have an example.

One person believe that god doesn't exist,so according to his belief he chose Islam.
So according to his belief he chose Islam,do that make sense to you.

My friend what you belief is what your religion is and even without calling it's name.

if someone is skeptic about his belief then he can choose his religion as "none" till he is sure what he wanted to be,i don't agree that religion should be forced to or to be by compulsion

What's wrong with being skeptic or doubting one's own religion or personal beliefs? God gave us mind so we can use our reason, otherwise, he would not allowed us to think but to submit naturally like angels.

Who are you to judge me? I'm a Muslim and i doubt sometimes. So you gonna call me kafir now?

Al-Ghazzali’s quest for certainty, as he defined it, is none other than this quest of the Gnostic. Initially, however it was a purely intellectual quest. There were both internal and external forces at work in fueling that quest to the point of generating a period of intense doubt in the youthful life of al-Ghazzali. Internally, by his own admission, his natural intellectual disposition has always been to grasp the real meaning of things. As for external forces, we have already referred to the most important of these, namely, the various intellectual, religious and spiritual currents of al-Ghazzali’s times, all of which must have engaged his highly reflective and contemplative mind. It is quite clear from the Munqidh that these various currents were of great concern to him.
In fact, al-Ghazzali traced the genesis of his famous dobut to these currents. He was struck by the diversity of religious and creeds, and by the fact that the followers of each religion cling stubbornly to their inherited beliefs. One consequence of his critical reflection upon this religious phenomenon was that he began to question uncritically inherited religious beliefs. One consequence of his critical reflection upon this religious phenomenon was that he began to question uncritically inherited religious beliefs (taqlidat). But living as he was in an age in which the idea of Transcendence was very much a living reality in the souls of men, the problem of diversity of religions did not lead al-Ghazzali to the kind of relativism that is rampant in modern times as a response to the same problem.[8] On the contrary, it was to lead him to the search for the inner reality of human nature, that is, man’s primordial nature (fitrah), which on the earthly plane becomes the receptacle for the multiplicity of religious forms and expressions.

The Place of Doubt in Islamic Epistemology: Al-Ghazzali’s Philosophical Experience

Al-Ghazali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No my friend,i disagree with you %100.
There are many scholars and there are many fatwas,so your point here is silly.

Do you want me to follow some scholar's fatwas to kill disbelievers and do you think such scholars are good muslims just because they are scholars and we should listen to them.
i am sorry my friend,but i hope you read more about Islam,even if we are muslims,we should always seek knoweldge about our religion based on our holy book which is the best we have than any scholar whom may guide you to the wrong path.

i aint against scholars here,but i am againt to regard them the only one whom allowed to speak about religion and that we should listen to them as if they are angels

i didn't understand your point,ilucidate please

My point is, if SCHOLARS fear to judge people and people beliefs, how about a lay man as yourself!!!

Sorry that you don't even understand what the actual tafseer of the verse,i don't know if you understand it according to one of your favourite scholars,then it is your choice.

But it isn't as you think that god is the one who made one to be a muslim or a one to be an atheist,so according to this logic we haven't to blame an atheist because god chose him to be so.

it is the way we want to be that god guide us to,according to our searching for him that god may guide us,but if you won't reach him,then he won't reach you,so if the person have the will,then god will guide him to Islam.

It was narrated from the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- in similar terms that Allah Almighty and Exalted said: "If My servant comes near Me one hand-span I come near him one cubit. If he comes near Me one cubit I come near him an arm's length. If he comes to Me walking, I come to him running."

Yeah. Again, it will be God, not you, and not me. Maybe you believe that God is inspiring you to post here or something? wake up! You don't hold the absolute truth so humble yourself and learn instead of throwing accusations at your brothers and sisters in Islam.

 

[FearGod]

What's wrong with being skeptic or doubting one's own religion or personal beliefs? God gave us mind so we can use our reason, otherwise, he would not allowed us to think but to submit naturally like angels.

So you need to understand what is the exact meaning of full submission to allah,and i do understand that you are also skeptical,so you are still not yet submitted while
you have some doubts in your mind,hope that god will guide you and me and to reject evil thoughts and i hope that you do believe that satan do exist and he is the one making us skeptical about god's laws which is never to think as unfair and injustice.

Who are you to judge me? I'm a Muslim and i doubt sometimes. So you gonna call me kafir now?

Who said that you are so,now you are doing a good job by defending god as being fair and justice,you are a good mirror for how muslim should act.

i never say to anyone as kafir,because i believe that god is the only one who knows our deeds and also IMHO i believe that god may accept good people "who never hurt or made a bad evil deeds against anyone even to an animal" ,but to think of him as unfair and injustice,then i don't know how he account for it,god knows better.


Hadith - Bukhari 4:538, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."​

Al-Ghazzali’s quest for certainty, as he defined it, is none other than this quest of the Gnostic. Initially, however it was a purely intellectual quest. There were both internal and external forces at work in fueling that quest to the point of generating a period of intense doubt in the youthful life of al-Ghazzali. Internally, by his own admission, his natural intellectual disposition has always been to grasp the real meaning of things. As for external forces, we have already referred to the most important of these, namely, the various intellectual, religious and spiritual currents of al-Ghazzali’s times, all of which must have engaged his highly reflective and contemplative mind. It is quite clear from the Munqidh that these various currents were of great concern to him.
In fact, al-Ghazzali traced the genesis of his famous dobut to these currents. He was struck by the diversity of religious and creeds, and by the fact that the followers of each religion cling stubbornly to their inherited beliefs. One consequence of his critical reflection upon this religious phenomenon was that he began to question uncritically inherited religious beliefs. One consequence of his critical reflection upon this religious phenomenon was that he began to question uncritically inherited religious beliefs (taqlidat). But living as he was in an age in which the idea of Transcendence was very much a living reality in the souls of men, the problem of diversity of religions did not lead al-Ghazzali to the kind of relativism that is rampant in modern times as a response to the same problem.[8] On the contrary, it was to lead him to the search for the inner reality of human nature, that is, man’s primordial nature (fitrah), which on the earthly plane becomes the receptacle for the multiplicity of religious forms and expressions.

The Place of Doubt in Islamic Epistemology: Al-Ghazzali’s Philosophical Experience

Al-Ghazali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Being in doubt and to think about god,where is he ? how he came out of nothing and other similar thoughts is a thing and to think of him as unfair and injustice is absolutely a different thing.

i aint against being in doubt eventhough that the prophet pbuh informed us it'll open the door for the satan,but to insult god as being unfair and injustice isn't skyptical but a direct insult to the almighty god.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “Satan will come to each one of you and he will say: who created this and that? He says this until he asks: who created your Lord? When he comes to this, you should seek refuge in Allah and abandon such thoughts.”
[Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 244]

My point is, if SCHOLARS fear to judge people and people beliefs, how about a lay man as yourself!!!

Simply because i am a layman,they fear god more than i,because they are scholars and that is the reason that many scholars are asking muslims to kill disbelievers because they fear god more than i. :areyoucra

Yeah. Again, it will be God, not you, and not me. Maybe you believe that God is inspiring you to post here or something? wake up! You don't hold the absolute truth so humble yourself and learn instead of throwing accusations at your brothers and sisters in Islam.

Don't put words in my mouth and i am even not interesting anymore to go further on discussing this issue with you,so this is my last reply and i am sorry that i'll even neglect your next reply because i am just a layman and it seems that laymen aren't allowed to discuss religion but only experts and inspired ones as you are.

 

[TashaN]

Don't put words in my mouth and i am even not interesting anymore to go further on discussing this issue with you,so this is my last reply and i am sorry that i'll even neglect your next reply because i am just a layman and it seems that laymen aren't allowed to discuss religion but only experts and inspired ones as you are.

Laymen should be even more humble than scholars because they don't have deep knowledge about the religion. The scholars you are talking about by the way who ask Muslims to kill others are half scholars, and they are not recognized by Muslims worldwide. They work in the dark.

If you are afraid from discussing this further with me, it means you have absolutely no right to attack other Muslims here and i hope you will stop doing that or i'm going to hammer you with my posts whether you like it or not, and everyone will see which post hold water, mine or yours. go run away now ... :run:

 

[Pegg]

And that is why I clearly mentioned in the OP that Polygamy has been made permissible and not Commanded in Islam and that even with strict rules to protect the women. And that's why only less than 2% of Muslim marriages are polygamous.

i would be interested to see the actual statistics for muslims worldwide because there are many muslims in australia who do practice polygamy even though its illegal here.

what are the chances of jumping in a random taxi in australia and the driver is muslim and has 5 wives? If only 2% of muslims in the world practiced polygamy, the chances of that happening would be so minute it would be unlikely because we only have less then 400,000 muslims here in austrlia. But its not.

But I wouldn't exactly call it 'progressive'. As stated in the OP, the western society where polygamy(mutually agreed upon relationship with full responsibility) is 'illegal' and cheating(breaking covenant, without any responsibility and often involves lustful desire) with your spouse is not - does not seem to be standing for freedom and rights of the one who is wronged.

imo, polygamy makes adultery legal. So there is no difference. Its still a married man having sex with multiple partners.

the only real difference is that the first wife cannot divorce a muslim husband for doing so. And i think that is far worse then finding out your husband has been cheating and having the freedom to divorce him for his unfaithfulness (or vise verse if it was the wife cheating)

In fact, it is a major problem in the western world. In US alone, it is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals engage in infidelity. And these numbers are probably on the conservative side given that 50% of all marriages that end in divorce are due to infidelity. You call that 'progress' ? Fine, your choice. I say you are directionally challenged (like the new map app in Iphone 5 which has problem with north/south ) who cannot distinguish between 'progress' and 'downfall'.

Yes it is progress that the marriage can be ended for such a crime. Even Gods word says that an unfaithful marriage mate can be divorced legally and in Gods eyes the marriage is ended. If God approves of such divorces, its because he does not condone adultery. The unfaithful mate has committed a grave sin in Gods eyes.

 

[paarsurrey]

i would be interested to see the actual statistics for muslims worldwide because there are many muslims in australia who do practice polygamy even though its illegal here.

what are the chances of jumping in a random taxi in australia and the driver is muslim and has 5 wives? If only 2% of muslims in the world practiced polygamy, the chances of that happening would be so minute it would be unlikely because we only have less then 400,000 muslims here in austrlia. But its not.



imo, polygamy makes adultery legal. So there is no difference. Its still a married man having sex with multiple partners.

the only real difference is that the first wife cannot divorce a muslim husband for doing so. And i think that is far worse then finding out your husband has been cheating and having the freedom to divorce him for his unfaithfulness.



Yes it is progress that the marriage can be ended for such a crime. Even Gods word says that an unfaithful marriage mate can be divorced legally and in Gods eyes the marriage is ended. If God approves of such divorces, its because he does not condone adultery. The unfaithful mate has committed a grave sin in Gods eyes.

Bible is very proud of claiming and proving that Jesus was from the line of David; David had many wives. Was he committing adultery ? If yes then how could it be a thing of any pride for Jesus being from his lineage.

"King David had many wives according to the Hebrew Bible."
King David's wives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Pegg]

Bible is very proud of claiming and proving that Jesus was from the line of David; David had many wives. Was he committing adultery ? If yes then how could it be a thing of any pride for Jesus being from his lineage.

"King David had many wives according to the Hebrew Bible."
King David's wives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yes he did

But he did so against Gods law which was given by Moses

Deuteronomy 17:15 '...From among your brothers you should set a king over yourself. ...16 Only he should not increase horses for himself,...17 He should also not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside


And this why is Jesus restated Gods original standard of monogamy...and Jesus apostles made it a part of christian teaching that a man must only have one wife.

 

[paarsurrey]

yes he did

But he did so against Gods law which was given by Moses

Deuteronomy 17:15 '...From among your brothers you should set a king over yourself. ...16 Only he should not increase horses for himself,...17 He should also not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside


And this why is Jesus restated Gods original standard of monogamy...and Jesus apostles made it a part of christian teaching that a man must only have one wife.

That makes Jesus and Mary sinful; sharing the original sin more than others.

 

[loverOfTruth]

i would be interested to see the actual statistics for muslims worldwide because there are many muslims in australia who do practice polygamy even though its illegal here.

what are the chances of jumping in a random taxi in australia and the driver is muslim and has 5 wives? If only 2% of muslims in the world practiced polygamy, the chances of that happening would be so minute it would be unlikely because we only have less then 400,000 muslims here in austrlia. But its not.

What you are saying is speculation and what I gave you is statistics.

imo, polygamy makes adultery legal. So there is no difference. Its still a married man having sex with multiple partners.

the only real difference is that the first wife cannot divorce a muslim husband for doing so. And i think that is far worse then finding out your husband has been cheating and having the freedom to divorce him for his unfaithfulness (or vise verse if it was the wife cheating)

That just shows that you neither understand what 'marriage in Islam' is nor what 'polygamy in Islam' is. It also demonstrates that you just came to some baseless conclusion without actually reading what the OP states.

Women in Islam has a right to Divorce if she doesn't want a polygamous relationship. So sorry, the cheating remains far worse.

Marriage in Islam comes with rights and responsibilities and not just sex (each marriage). Polygamy in Islam comes with restrictions and responsibilities and not just sex.

And I don't know which guy in their right mind would get into an Islamic polygyny as opposed to casual extra-marital relation for only sex given that you have to provide a house, car, money etc. for each wife. So you clearly have no clue about either marriage or polygamy in Islam. :no:

Yes it is progress that the marriage can be ended for such a crime. Even Gods word says that an unfaithful marriage mate can be divorced legally and in Gods eyes the marriage is ended. If God approves of such divorces, its because he does not condone adultery. The unfaithful mate has committed a grave sin in Gods eyes.

Really ? Then why would the same God give someone's wife to other men ? "Therefore I will give their wives to other men..."[Jeremiah 8:10]

Furthermore, as someone else pointed out that Mary(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) are by products(from the lineage) of King David's relation with one of his many wives, according to the Bible. And according to you, that is adultery. So are you really saying that they(Mary(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh)) are illegitimate children(descendants) of King David (God forbid, that can never be true). Even as a Muslim, I feel disgusted to write/say/think that. But given the way you define 'progress', I am not surprised to see that from you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

i would be interested to see the actual statistics for muslims worldwide because there are many muslims in australia who do practice polygamy even though its illegal here.

what are the chances of jumping in a random taxi in australia and the driver is muslim and has 5 wives? If only 2% of muslims in the world practiced polygamy, the chances of that happening would be so minute it would be unlikely because we only have less then 400,000 muslims here in austrlia. But its not.

A man isn't allowed to marry more than 4 wives in Islam, so chances are those who presumably marry 5 wives would be committing a major sin according to the majority of mainstream Islamic scholars, as far as I know.

 

[loverOfTruth]

A man isn't allowed to marry more than 4 wives in Islam, so chances are those who presumably marry 5 wives would be committing a major sin according to the majority of mainstream Islamic scholars, as far as I know.

Which further proves that Pegg has no idea as to what Polygamy in Islam entails and that she didn't even read the OP before coming up with the false conclusions.

 

[F0uad]

Well reading her fist message it was clear that she knew nothing about it. Fours women's is a restriction not a obligation or encouraged to do its better to have one wife then four.

 

[mestupid]

Islam is not fair and just simply because it does not tolerate the beliefs, practices, and laws of others who believe differently than themselves. That is very simply put. It needs no other explaination.

 

[darkendless]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Islam. I have been told many many times that I know nothing about Islam, even when quoting what appeared to be rather 'official' stances about certain ambiguous passages of the Quran.

In saying that, a fair number if adherents themselves seem to be rather confused about what a lot of thing mean within Islam, so what chance do the rest of us have?

 

[Straw Dog]

Islam in and of itself cannot provide justice. It is people who create justice through reason and a sense of fairness. As to date, I don't believe we have completed this process nor that it has been perfectly codified into any single ancient text. It's not our abstract beliefs, but rather our actions that define us. I don't give credit to Muhammad, or Jesus, or God whenever someone performs a virtuous action. The beauty of their virtue belongs to them.

 

[TashaN]

Islam is not fair and just simply because it does not tolerate the beliefs, practices, and laws of others who believe differently than themselves. That is very simply put. It needs no other explaination.

How do you know that Islam doesn't?