Do you believe that Islam is a fair and just religion?

[loverOfTruth]

It's a simple question: yes or no?

Not if the question is not factual.

 

[Storm]

Not if the question is not factual.

A question is incapable of being factual or infactual. Seeking answers does not provide them.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Not to mention, the West treats men the same way. That's what happens when 90% of the media panders to the lowest common denominator.

But at least I don't have to worry about being publicly flogged for being raped.

That is not true at all. How many naked men do you see on TV compared to women ? How many TV ads do you see showing unclothed men compared to unclothed women ?

And the 'flogged for being rape' is nowhere to be found in Islam either. If some places it is done in the name of Islam, there's nothing I can do about it. Other places it is not. Should I now say that at least we don't have to worry about our children being molested by older men ? Would that be decent ? So there's no point going in that direction just out of hate towards others.

 

[Storm]

That is not true at all. How many naked men do you see on TV compared to women ? How many TV ads do you see showing unclothed men compared to unclothed women ?

At least as many, from the shirtless Old Spice Guy (who I love) to... well, just about everything on HBO. Especially Oz, which I'm truly frightened to watch. On some shows (Buffy springs to mind), it's actually inverted, with the guys being presented as eye candy and the women discretely covered even in post-sex scenes. One scene actually had Buffy laying under a CARPET to achieve this effect. It was kinda goofy.

May I ask if you live in the US, or even North America?

And the 'flogged for being rape' is nowhere to be found in Islam either. If some places it is done in the name of Islam, there's nothing I can do about it. Other places it is not. Should I now say that at least we don't have to worry about our children being molested by older men ? Would that be decent ? So there's no point going in that direction just out of hate towards others.

Again, I don't pander to the No True Scotsman fallacy, whether done for offense or defense.

As for your example, I'll accept its validity when and if you can demonstrate that there are no Muslim pedophiles. Considering that it's a mental disorder, as opposed to a legal issue I really don't buy the implied claim that it doesn't happen.

And finally, I do not hate Islam, Muslims, or Arabic culture for that matter. You started this thread with a question which I assumed was intended to prompt honest discussion. If I was in error, please say so now, and I won't waste any more of my time. If I was right, drop the histrionics, they're counterproductive.

 

[loverOfTruth]

A question is incapable of being factual or infactual. Seeking answers does not provide them.

Try answering this in 'yes' or 'no' : "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

[Storm]

Try answering this in 'yes' or 'no' : "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Not comparable. My question carried no implications, I merely asked whether it was Islamic or not.

Do you want to keep playing games, or shall I go quote hunting?

 

[loverOfTruth]

At least as many, from the shirtless Old Spice Guy (who I love) to... well, just about everything on HBO. Especially Oz, which I'm truly frightened to watch. On some shows (Buffy springs to mind), it's actually inverted, with the guys being presented as eye candy and the women discretely covered even in post-sex scenes. One scene actually had Buffy laying under a CARPET to achieve this effect. It was kinda goofy.

May I ask if you live in the US, or even North America?

Yes, I do. But I don't know what this has to do with anything.

Again, I don't pander to the No True Scotsman fallacy, whether done for offense or defense.

As for your example, I'll accept its validity when and if you can demonstrate that there are no Muslim pedophiles. Considering that it's a mental disorder, as opposed to a legal issue I really don't buy the implied claim that it doesn't happen.

And finally, I do not hate Islam, Muslims, or Arabic culture for that matter. You started this thread with a question which I assumed was intended to prompt honest discussion. If I was in error, please say so now, and I won't waste any more of my time. If I was right, drop the histrionics, they're counterproductive.

Point is not if there exists one Muslim pedophile - may be one in a million, I don't know. But the point is that it is not anywhere near how it is in the west that people have to worry about it when they send their children to school, events, sports etc. So my point is that you threw a wrong practice done in Afghanistan which doesn't happen in any other Muslim country and not even condoned in Islam to show Islam is not fair. Is that fair ? And I also consider it to be a mental disorder by who instituted the law for 'flogging for being raped'. And it is certainly not Islamic. Problem is the unfair perception you have about Islam is from the biased media which shows only few bad apples which has nothing to do with Islam and not the good ones.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Not comparable. My question carried no implications, I merely asked whether it was Islamic or not.

Do you want to keep playing games, or shall I go quote hunting?

That's why I said if you read the response I provided in page 2, it should be very clear as to what it means and why.

 

[Storm]

Yes, I do. But I don't know what this has to do with anything.

Because if you didn't, you'd only get the insanely popular crap.

Point is not if there exists one Muslim pedophile - may be one in a million, I don't know. But the point is that it is not anywhere near how it is in the west that people have to worry about it when they send their children to school, events, sports etc.

I call bull. It may not be widely acknowledged, but psychiatric disorders don't care where you live or how you pray.

So my point is that you threw a wrong practice done in Afghanistan which doesn't happen in any other Muslim country and not even condoned in Islam to show Islam is not fair. Is that fair ?

Was it done under the heading of Islamic jurisprudence? The thing is, you have to take the good with the bad, especially when evaluating moral issues.

However, I'll grant that it may be rare enough to disregard. How about legislating women's clothing, implying that they're too immoral or stupid to dress themselves?

And I also consider it to be a mental disorder by who instituted the law for 'flogging for being raped'.

Really? What would it fall under in the DSM?

And it is certainly not Islamic. Problem is the unfair perception you have about Islam is from the biased media which shows only few bad apples which has nothing to do with Islam and not the good ones.

If I knew no more of Islam than is shown on the news I WOULD hate it.

 

[Storm]

That's why I said if you read the response I provided in page 2, it should be very clear as to what it means and why.

So, it is Islamic. God, that was like pulling teeth!

 

[loverOfTruth]

I call bull. It may not be widely acknowledged, but psychiatric disorders don't care where you live or how you pray.

You can call it what you want but it is a fact. It might sound like a news to you but I understand given the problem is so prevalent in the west. But those disorders are not something people are born with - people develop those through their culture, upbringing, and surroundings. Plus, those who pray and obey God won't even go near such sick acts given they have to be accountable for their actions in front of God.

And it is funny how in the west, when an old man terrorizes an innocent child with physical abuse forcibly, they call it a 'psychiatric disorder'; when someone goes on a violent rampant killing innocent school kids or by standers at a mall or a movie theater, they call him 'insane' and when an extremist Muslim kills someone they call him a 'terrorist'.

Was it done under the heading of Islamic jurisprudence? The thing is, you have to take the good with the bad, especially when evaluating moral issues.

However, I'll grant that it may be rare enough to disregard. How about legislating women's clothing, implying that they're too immoral or stupid to dress themselves?

I guess you don't know what modesty is. It is exactly to protect women from being a piece of flesh.

 

[Storm]

You can call it what you want but it is a fact. It might sound like a news to you but I understand given the problem is so prevalent in the west. But those disorders are not something people are born with - people develop those through their culture, upbringing, and surroundings. Plus, those who pray and obey God won't even go near such sick acts given they have to be accountable for their actions in front of God.

Deny, deny, deny. We're done.

 

[TashaN]

Until the whole founding of Israel thing.

Not at all. Israel was just a result but not a cause. The main cause of creating Israel and the mess in the Middle East was the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the conquest of the Muslim world by Western countries which took place after that.

TashaN, please don't think I'm being contrary. I recognize that Islam has a glorious history, for much of which it was actually considerably MORE egalitarian than the Christianity of the day (can't speak as to Judaism), and have often pointed that out to bashers.

That said, for purposes of this thread I (and, I gather, the op) am not interested in the Islam of centuries ago. Now is a much more pressing concern, don't you agree?

I totally agree. I was just presenting my case step by step. What i was just trying to say is that as we had a great Muslim nation before, we can have another and what you see today is just a transition which can take place in any area of the world. The dark age in Europe as an example which was followed by the enlightenment. If Europe was in the dark once then walked on the path of the light, then so any other nation can do so.

i believe that the Muslim nation is recovering now and walking in the path of light.

When i first came to RF back in 2005, i was really frustrated with the negativity surrounding me. Everyone around me was either shocked or confused for what is happening around the world for the Muslims and non-Muslims alike. One doesn't know what to believe and what not to. I came here not so i can just speak and campaign for a propaganda for Islam. I came to listen first to the other side of the world first, and secondly to speak up and say i'm a proud Muslim and here is what i believe.

I also have changed alot since then, so many of my views as well on various issues. I learnt alot also from discussing/debating with others and i came to understand where people are coming from.

I'm not here to be apologetic nor am i here merely defend Islam blindly. I'm hear to speak the truth and engage in an honest dialogue. Also i'm here to show the shortcomings of how we perceive, interpret and practice our religion today, and whether there is any room for reform or not.

it's very easy to blame others for our misery but very hard to admit that we need to change now, and to be brave enough to admit our shortcomings.

I'm no scholar so my views might be far from perfect as an ideal scholarly view, but i can simply voice my opinion as a simple concerned Muslim.

The good thing is that change already has started with Arab Spring. Many people didn't know how heavily dictatorships were controlling courts and scholars and may have used religion to control the masses and cover up for their shortcomings and political failure through claiming of being anti-US and brave enough to face the West or through demonstrating that they are REAL Muslims and love sharia by prosecuting poor people and enforce very harsh judgment on them.

The real problem is that so many people in the Muslim world were being used and manipulated by their dictators and what is even worse is that many of them either didn't realize or were too helpless to do anything about it, but everything changed forever.

 

[Storm]

Not at all. Israel was just a result but not a cause. The main cause of creating Israel and the mess in the Middle East was the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the conquest of the Muslim world by Western countries which took place after that.



I totally agree. I was just presenting my case step by step. What i was just trying to say is that as we had a great Muslim nation before, we can have another and what you see today is just a transition which can take place in any area of the world. The dark age in Europe as an example which was followed by the enlightenment. If Europe was in the dark once then walked on the path of the light, then so any other nation can do so.

i believe that the Muslim nation is recovering now and walking in the path of light.

When i first came to RF back in 2005, i was really frustrated with the negativity surrounding me. Everyone around me was either shocked or confused for what is happening around the world for the Muslims and non-Muslims alike. One doesn't know what to believe and what not to. I came here not so i can just speak and campaign for a propaganda for Islam. I came to listen first to the other side of the world first, and secondly to speak up and say i'm a proud Muslim and here is what i believe.

I also have changed alot since then, so many of my views as well on various issues. I learnt alot also from discussing/debating with others and i came to understand where people are coming from.

I'm not here to be apologetic nor am i here merely defend Islam blindly. I'm hear to speak the truth and engage in an honest dialogue. Also i'm here to show the shortcomings of how we perceive, interpret and practice our religion today, and whether there is any room for reform or not.

it's very easy to blame others for our misery but very hard to admit that we need to change now, and to be brave enough to admit our shortcomings.

I'm no scholar so my views might be far from perfect as an ideal scholarly view, but i can simply voice my opinion as a simple concerned Muslim.

The good thing is that change already has started with Arab Spring. Many people didn't know how heavily dictatorships were controlling courts and scholars and may have used religion to control the masses and cover up for their shortcomings and political failure through claiming of being anti-US and brave enough to face the West or through demonstrating that they are REAL Muslims and love sharia by prosecuting poor people and enforce very harsh judgment on them.

The real problem is that so many people in the Muslim world were being used and manipulated by their dictators and what is even worse is that many of them either didn't realize or were too helpless to do anything about it, but everything changed forever.

Oh! OK, right there with ya. I didn't realize where you were going.

Next time, don't be coy. If you'd ask me if I think Islam is hopeless, you'd have gotten a very different answer!

 

[mestupid]

I have been busy. I stated that Islam is intolerant of other religions. Any religion that imposes penalties or death to people who convert to other religions is a religion that is intolerant of any other religion. It is not only Islam but many sects of Christians to. I do not single Islam out, but it seems to be the most intolerent of most of the worlds religions. No person should be killed, endangered, or shunned because of their beliefs. Islam and Christianity should be happy that people believe in God. The worlds fastest growing religion is not Islam or Christianity. It is no religion at all. Atheism and agnosticism, and "none" are growing fast.

 

[TashaN]

Oh! OK, right there with ya. I didn't realize where you were going.

Next time, don't be coy. If you'd ask me if I think Islam is hopeless, you'd have gotten a very different answer!

Forgive me, but i didn't think you would believe me if i said there is hope! So i thought to give you an idea of how Muslims were in the past--real example of our capacity of being civilized and progressive--ending it with a proof that a change is happening already today and that there is no turning back. We are going a head now.

 

[Storm]

Forgive me, but i didn't think you would believe me if i said there is hope! So i thought to give you an idea of how Muslims were in the past--real example of our capacity of being civilized and progressive--ending it with a proof that a change is happening already today and that there is no turning back. We are going a head now.

Well, you don't know me that well.

 

[TashaN]

I have been busy. I stated that Islam is intolerant of other religions. Any religion that imposes penalties or death to people who convert to other religions is a religion that is intolerant of any other religion. It is not only Islam but many sects of Christians to. I do not single Islam out, but it seems to be the most intolerent of most of the worlds religions. No person should be killed, endangered, or shunned because of their beliefs. Islam and Christianity should be happy that people believe in God. The worlds fastest growing religion is not Islam or Christianity. It is no religion at all. Atheism and agnosticism, and "none" are growing fast.

Politics and greed for power have controlled our religion for a while, but everything is changing as i mentioned in my previous post.

 

[TashaN]

Well, you don't know me that well.

I'm starting to learn then. :foot:

 

[Storm]

I'm starting to learn then. :foot:

No worries, doll. I don't know you well, either. We ought to work on that.