Do you forgive (the Abrahamic) God?

[Treasure Hunter]

I do not buy your premise, that death, evil, and suffering happen because is absent, since that implies that if God were present none of those would exist.
I do not buy it because even if God was present, death, evil, and suffering would still exist since those are all part of being a human with free will living in a physical world.
I also do not buy it because God cannot be present in this world although His Spirit is present in this world.

The Kingdom of Heaven is where the living Father is. There is no death, evil, or suffering in the Kingdom (wherever the living Father is). These are foundational truths of the God of Abraham.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Kingdom of Heaven is where the living Father is. There is no death, evil, or suffering in the Kingdom (wherever the living Father is). These are foundational truths of the God of Abraham.

Yes, I agree.

but you said:
Death, evil, and suffering happen where God the Father is absent. God is responsible for his absence in this world. Is he not?

but if the living Father is in Heaven, how can He also be on earth?

Are you saying that if God was on earth there would be no death, evil, or suffering?
I don't see it that way since the reason there is death, evil, and suffering on earth is not becaue God is not here, so there would still be death, evil, and suffering on earth even if God was here. In other words, the reason that Heaven is Heaven is not because God is in Heaven. It is Heaven because it is a spiritual world that God made and since it is a spiritual world there is death, evil, or suffering.

 

[dybmh]

Reading through the responses, this occurs to me.

I read a lot about God being blamed for not making the world perfect, with no danger in it. I also read people saying God should have made our natures perfect, with no inclination to do bad things. Is that the real problem?

My answer is, yes there can be room for free will. Yes, the world should have enough uncomfortable things in it to allow us to experience emotions of all kinds and also to learn from our experiences. The perfect world would be dull, uncomfortable stuff adds spice.

But did it have to be quite so bad? Yes, let's experience pain, for a while, but not constantly. Let's have injuries and practical difficulties that get in the way of our desires, but not so bad as to destroy us physically or mentally. Yes, let's fight among ourselves occasionally, but not go to war or invent hydrogen bombs or land mines. Let's be born with differing abilities but not have babies born to a few months of pain followed by death. Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others. Let's be greedy up to a point, but not so some people are billionaires while others starve.

Then we might be able to say "The world's not so bad really and if a god created it we don't have to be angry at him".

So when we make those little mistakes, that cause little problems, and we are only a little bit punished, what's the incentive to not make those mistakes? Maybe I like causing trouble.

And are we aware of the fact that nothing really big can go wrong? Or do I still have that anxiety?

Am I physically prevented from driving my car off the cliff? Or does the idea never cross my mind? What other ideas never cross my mind?

What about art and poetry, are those blunted also?

Who decides what is a minor problem? Some people think adultry is a victimless crime as long as no one finds out.

Are there serious illnesses?

What happens when people get old?

Does everyone have the same life span?

What about over-indulgence? Can I just keep eating and eating without doing a lot of damage to myself? Am I physically prevented from eating too much? Again, is my brain somehow controlled to prevent it?

What about starving myself? Can I starve myself without causing too much trouble on myself?

All of these things make life more than "uncomfortable", but doesn't preventing them make life a little, ummm, I keep using this word, wierd? Either my brain and body are being controlled, or, I can do all sorts of strange things without consequences. And no one is going to agree on what should or should not be permitted.

 

[Alien826]

Notably, Jesus never said anything about an original sin committed by Adam and Eve as the reason for his sacrifice. That is Christian theology.

Yes, that's the theology I'm talking about.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you give me some examples other than what is in the Old Testament, since I consider that anthropomorphic.

All of the future wrath promised in the New Testament.

Anyone who has done their research knows that never happened.

I don't generally assume that a theist's beliefs are reasonable or consistent, especially if they adhere to a "revealed" religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please, enough with the nonsense that God causes evil and suffering.

I get that you're uncomfortable with - and apparently in denial of - the implications of what you assert is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

All of the future wrath promised in the New Testament.

I don't believe that is going to happen the way you think and even if disasters did happen, they would not be God's wrath.
Besides that, you cannot blame God for what has not even happened yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

I get that you're uncomfortable with - and apparently in denial of - the implications of what you assert is true.

I get that you're uncomfortable with what I believe is true about God.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Yes, I agree.

but you said:
Death, evil, and suffering happen where God the Father is absent. God is responsible for his absence in this world. Is he not?

but if the living Father is in Heaven, how can He also be on earth?

By establishing his Kingdom here on Earth. This is how it is in the beginning for every child.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't believe that is going to happen the way you think and even if disasters did happen, they would not be God's wrath.

If you want to argue for some other hypothetical scenario, maybe hold off until we're done talking about the one in the Bible.

i get that you don't agree with the Bible entirely; neither do I, but I'm willing to entertain the idea of it being true for the sake of the discussion. If you aren't going to do the same, then you'll be taking the thread off-topic.

Besides that, you cannot blame God for what has not even happened yet.

The threats have already happened... again, if we take the Bible as true.

 

[Alien826]

Replies in italics are quotes from my post which you could, perhaps have read more carefully.

So when we make those little mistakes, that cause little problems, and we are only a little bit punished, what's the incentive to not make those mistakes? Maybe I like causing trouble.

the world should have enough uncomfortable things in it to allow us to experience emotions of all kinds and also to learn from our experiences

And are we aware of the fact that nothing really big can go wrong? Or do I still have that anxiety?

Your experience would teach you that.

Am I physically prevented from driving my car off the cliff? Or does the idea never cross my mind? What other ideas never cross my mind?

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others. (Or ourselves, too badly)

What about art and poetry, are those blunted also?

Why should they be? Those are good things, mostly.

Who decides what is a minor problem? Some people think adultry is a victimless crime as long as no one finds out.

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others

Are there serious illnesses?

Let's have injuries and practical difficulties that get in the way of our desires, but not so bad as to destroy us physically or mentally

What happens when people get old?

They die, painlessly.

Does everyone have the same life span?

No, but a reasonable life span for everyone.

What about over-indulgence? Can I just keep eating and eating without doing a lot of damage to myself? Am I physically prevented from eating too much? Again, is my brain somehow controlled to prevent it?

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others. (Or ourselves, too badly)

What about starving myself? Can I starve myself without causing too much trouble on myself?

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others. (Or ourselves, too badly)

All of these things make life more than "uncomfortable", but doesn't preventing them make life a little, ummm, I keep using this word, wierd? Either my brain and body are being controlled, or, I can do all sorts of strange things without consequences. And no one is going to agree on what should or should not be permitted.

This is supposed to be a better world created by a god. It would decide, not us. We wouldn't know anything else, so it wouldn't feel weird.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Are you saying that if God was on earth there would be no death, evil, or suffering?

I’ve already said this. How can perfection mix with sin? How can life fulfilled mix with death? If the living Father were fully present throughout this world, then there can be no death. This is God 101 for the God of Abraham.

You can believe in whichever god you choose. I’m explaining the God of Abraham.

 

[Trailblazer]

By establishing his Kingdom here on Earth. This is how it is in the beginning for every child.

Why do you think that God is going to establish the Kingdom on earth?

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

I don't believe that God is going to establish the Kingdom on earth. I believe that humans are going to do that.
It will be an earthly kingdom, not a heavenly kingdom. That is why the verse says "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

 

[Trailblazer]

I’ve already said this. How can perfection mix with sin? How can life fulfilled mix with death? If the living Father was fully present throughout this world, then there can be no death. This is God 101 for the God of Abraham.

You can believe in whichever god you choose. I’m explaining the God of Abraham.

If the living Father was fully present throughout this world, then there can be no spiritual death. This is God 101 for the God of Abraham.
There will always be physical death since the physical body is mortal.

 

[dybmh]

Replies in italics are quotes from my post which you could, perhaps have read more carefully.

I did, I did...

the world should have enough uncomfortable things in it to allow us to experience emotions of all kinds and also to learn from our experiences

But I'm learning that nothing really bad happens.

Your experience would teach you that.

My experience is teaching me that nothing truly bad is going to happen? But until then, am I afraid?

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others. (Or ourselves, too badly)

How does this work? Is my mind controlled, or my body, or both?

Why should they be? Those are good things, mostly.

Because any art, poetry, or media of any kind that depicts real tragedy is meaningless.

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others

So you're fine with adultry? Victimless crime? So how does that work? Is God preventing anyone from finding out? Is the discomfort from having someone romp with my spouse magically eliminated from my mind? Everyone is promiscuous? No STDs? Babies are born and no one knws who the father is are without DNA testing? Does anyone care who their father is anymore? Or is that just tribal nonsense?

Let's have injuries and practical difficulties that get in the way of our desires, but not so bad as to destroy us physically or mentally

So I can eat as much as I want. As long as I accept the small about of practical difficulty, but it won't actually kill me?

They die, painlessly.

OK....

No, but a reasonable life span for everyone.

How do they know that they are sick and dying? They die painlessly, that means no warning?

Let's be stupid, but not enough to endanger others. (Or ourselves, too badly)

How does this work, is someone controlling my brain, or my body?

This is supposed to be a better world created by a god. It would decide, not us. We wouldn't know anything else so, wouldn't feel weird.

So, our happiness and saticfaction is preprogrammed and no matter what happens, we just feel great about it? What happened to having full emotional range?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

If the living Father was fully present throughout this world, then there can be no spiritual death. This is God 101 for the God of Abraham.
There will always be physical death since the physical body is mortal.

You do not understand the Kingdom of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you want to argue for some other hypothetical scenario, maybe hold off until we're done talking about the one in the Bible.

Okay, but it is not a hypothetical scenario, it is another religious view.

i get that you don't agree with the Bible entirely; neither do I, but I'm willing to entertain the idea of it being true for the sake of the discussion. If you aren't going to do the same, then you'll be taking the thread off-topic.

Forgiving the God of Abraham is the topic, but the God of Abraham is not only found in the Bible. That God is also found in the Qur'an and the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I understand that the Bible is what most people go by so what future wrath is promised in the New Testament?
I was never a Christian so I don't know the Bible very well, just bits and pieces.

The threats have already happened... again, if we take the Bible as true.

What threats are promised in the New Testament?

 

[Trailblazer]

You do not understand the Kingdom of God.

I could say the same thing to you because I don't think that you understand the Kingdom of God.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You do not understand the Kingdom of God.

Maybe it's you who don't understand the kingdom of God. I think it's very arrogant of you to insinuate that Trailblazer could be wrong about her beliefs when it's quite possible that you could be wrong about yours. I do, however, realize that you will more likely deny that with your dying breath.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe it's you who don't understand the kingdom of God. I think it's very arrogant of you to insinuate that Trailblazer could be wrong about her beliefs when it's quite possible that you could be wrong about yours. I do, however, realize that you will more likely deny that with your dying breath.

It is also notable that Christians do not agree on what the Kingdom of God on earth will be although they are all reading from the same Bible.
Which of these Christians are right and which are wrong? Why are some right and others wrong? It's all about interpretation of scriptures.