Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
No. I am speaking the truth.
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Do you forgive (the Abrahamic) God?
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Yes, that is correct. It is also worth noting that Christians do not agree on whether salvation is unconditional or not, although they are all reading the same Bible. The same is true for baptism, female pastors, the end times, whether human spirits immediately face God's judgment after death, whether Christians are immediately in the presence of Jesus after death, or if all souls (Christian or not) sleep in their graves until they're resurrected on an alleged Judgment Day. They even argue about whether Jesus' mother remained a virgin after giving birth to him or if she had other children after him. The irony is that they all believe that they are correct about their beliefs and everyone else (including other Christians) is wrong about theirs, but then they all have the audacity to claim that the Bible is the word of God and Christianity is the only true religion in the world. In my opinion, there's no reason to believe any of them.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Yes, I know that is what you believe, but it's obvious that not everyone agrees with your truth.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
The Son of Man transcends the subjective. You don’t recognize because you don’t know the Son of Man.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So am I.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Save your breath and stop preaching, because you are barking up the wrong tree. You are speaking your truth; Trailblazer and other Baháʼí speak their truth; Muslims speak their truth; Jews speak their truth; and Christians speak their truth, despite the fact that they contradict each other even though they read the same Bible. The irony is that all of these people will claim that their truth is the sole truth and that everyone who believes differently is wrong.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Enlightening.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Here, let’s try to make this productive.
Do you agree @Trailblazer that God came down from Heaven to create the world? If so, why did he do this? What is the end game in your mind?
OP @an anarchist feel free to respond.
Do you agree @Trailblazer that God came down from Heaven to create the world? If so, why did he do this? What is the end game in your mind?
OP @an anarchist feel free to respond.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God created the world for people and animals to inhabit. God's intention was for humanity to evolve spiritually, and that has been a gradual process that has taken place gradually throughout the ages. The end game was to create a new world order, which the Bible refers to as the Kingdom of God on earth. The new world order will be comprised of a New Race of Men.
“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.
Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Ok. Since you have separated God from Heaven, if I am a soul in Heaven, why would I leave Heaven and enter into this world that God created? Why would I choose the world over Heaven? Or do souls not choose?
Next question: where does God go after he creates this world?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If you were a soul in heaven that would mean you had already been born on earth and lived on earth and you would have a spiritual body in Heaven. You cannot choose to come back to earth because you would need a physical body to live here, and if you were in Heaven that would mean that your physical body had died. I hope this isn't too confusing.
Nobody leaves Heaven and returns to this world, they leave this world and go to Heaven, where thye live for eternity.
I have no idea where God is. I assume He is in the highest Heaven, and He is out of reach of any human.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
What is a soul in your view? You seem to believe a soul is created in the world. Is that accurate? How is it created?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that the soul is a mystery, a sign of God, and it comes into existence at the time of conception. The soul that animates the physical body while we are alive in a physical body, but after the body dies the soul accociates itself with a spiritual body and ascends to Heaven.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
So God is in Heaven and decides to create the cosmos with a world where there will be these creatures called humans with mysterious soul things. The purpose is for these human soul things to create an order in the world, die, and join God in Heaven for eternity? Is that the gist of it?
What is the motivation for God to bother with this? Is he lonely in Heaven? Is he bored? Are we his entertainment? How is this good? Is it good?
Alien826
No religious beliefs
I think you've misunderstood. It depends where the bar is set. Obviously I can't design a whole world for you here, but as examples, injuries that caused a lot of pain and disability for months would still exist, but they would heal. Plenty of reason to avoid whatever caused it, surely? A condition that caused severe pain with no hope of remission followed by death, no.
See above about "nothing truly bad". Being anxious about possibilities teaches us to plan to avoid them.
No more than they are now. You're assuming you are the same but some external influence controls you. I'm sure you wouldn't torture an an innocent person for fun but some people would. Neither of you is controlled, you are both behaving according to your nature. Everyone would be like you, that's all.
The question of our bodies is different. I imagine some adjustments would be necessary to eliminate certain "really bad" diseases and so on. They wouldn't be externally controlled though.
You mean that art that is inspired by tragedy wouldn't exist? That's a small price to pay to get rid of the tragedy.
Our propensity to do "bad" things would be reduced. Which things are bad is a different matter and would be determined by the creator.
This raises something I hadn't considered, suicide. I believe we have the right to end our lives if we choose, by whatever method we choose. Would that still apply? To your question, I don't think giving us total immunity from the results of our actions is a good thing. Hopefully our enhanced intelligence would avoid much of this and the reduction in bad treatment by others would help too. I guess if you want to harm yourself you would allowed to, and suffer the consequences. This is a better world not a perfect one.
Not at all. A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with bladder cancer (now totally in remission). The symptoms involved no pain, but prompted me to go the my doctor.
See my answer above concerning control.
I think I've covered this. No we would have emotions as appropriate, not feel great all the time. It wouldn't be a full emotional range, because it would limit things like irrational fear, clinical depression and pathological hatred. Do you really want those things? There would be plenty of emotion left.
Let me sum up by saying that I'm mostly not introducing anything new. Good people already exist, it's not impossible. Likewise intelligent people and healthy people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, that is the gist of it.
God is not lonely or bored, these are human emotions. The motivation for God to bother with us was God's love for us.
3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
God wants what is best for us because God loves us. This is good for humans since God alone knows what is best for humans and gives it to us..
Everything that God does is only for human benefit, not for God’s benefit. God needs nothing for Himself because God is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. Only humans have needs.
“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.”
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
There is enough truth in this perspective. There is only so much I’m able to push back against anyone loving God in this way, even if it ignores justice and the problem of evil. Loving God is foundational in the story.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was not talking about humans loving God, I was talking about God's love for humans. However, humans loving God is the other side of the equation and that is what we are enjoined to do.
5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6: O SON OF BEING! Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.
FYI, I have my own personal issues with loving God given my own unmitigated suffering, but I still recognize that it is in my best interest to love God.
This is a work in progress and I may never accomplish it.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
This is admirable, even miraculous when you look deeply enough.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks, it has been and still is a struggle, but I have wanted to act according to my religious beliefs, rather than give in to my emotions.