Do You Identify as a Feminist?

[Clizby Wampuscat]

An embryo is not an innocent human being. If it implants outside of the uterus, if it is not removed, chances are you are gonna die, as will the embryo. Once it implants, it can't be moved to safer place. The embryo does not care about the welfare of the host.

The uterus is a woman's defense mechanism to help her survive the implantation of an embryo.

Even if the embryo implants in the uterus, there is no guarantee that a woman will survive, much less the embryo.

Knowing this, I can't blame a woman for wanting to remove an unwelcome embryo. However, can I also admire a woman for choosing to lay her life on the line to take the risk of endangering her health and well-being to host an embryo to viability and then guide it to become a mature human being. It's not my place, nor anyone else's place, to make that decision and commitment for another human being.

Would you want the government dictating that you must host an embryo, whether you have the defensive mechanism of a uterus or not?

The government is not dictating a woman must host an embryo. Most men and women make the free choice to have sex knowing the result could be a human living life.

 

[Revoltingest]

The government is not dictating a woman must host an embryo. Most men and women make the free choice to have sex knowing the result could be a human living life.

There are complexities....
- Making poor choices.
- Severe birth defects.
- Failed contraception.
- Rape.
I don't see the right to an abortion as
contingent upon government approval
of prior acts, or misfortune.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Forced birth is immoral.

The government is not forcing anyone to get pregnant. The immorality is killing a living human life that was conceived by a free choice to have sex by a man and a woman, which is almost all the cases.

I answered you a long time ago, you ignored it. You equate potential opportunity as actual opportunity. Which blinds people to inequality so long as the law *appears* to be egalitarian but in practice is not.

Ok

Likewise I'm sure you dismiss things out of hand which show inequality such as pay gap, hiring discrimination, rates of sexual assault and sexual harassment, etc.

When did I do that? I never said these things do not exist.

Women have a distinctly less power or means of affecting change =/= Women are helpless. But it does mean that they have to struggle and should speak out on that struggle and on that imbalance.

Yes, that is life.

If you actually read the reported reasons, half of those male respondants say they *don't want to go to college.* split evenly between 'don't think college is worthwhile' and 'don't need more education for their trade career path.'

The fact is girls are encouraged to go to college and boys are not because of the perceived bias against girls due to their gender. It is not politically correct to help boys succeed especially white boys succeed even though they are falling behind in academics every year from 1st grade on. Elementary education is programmed, administered and taught by 80-90% women. They expect little boys to act like little girls and sit for hours without real breaks. Girls are empowered and boys are told they are the problem in society. Why shouldn't we empower boys the same as we do girls?

I care that right conservative philosophy frames educational institutions as worthless mouthpieces of the left and shun education that they have more wealth to access than any other demographic. I also care that the religious background I came from was rife with 'college is worldly and of the devil and should be avoided.'

They are mouthpieces for the left in most cases but they are not worthless. Religion should be avoided.

They had these views because higher education doesnt support their antiquated views of history, civics, science.

Ok

Sounds like you're going to ignore their stories just because it's not something you personally see, as if this happens with open doors.

No it isn't. Lol.

Women in the Construction Workplace: Providing Equitable Safety and Health Protection | Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

This should be dealt with no doubt. Is this the only reason they don't want to be in the construction industry? I doubt it.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

There are complexities....
- Making poor choices.
- Severe birth defects.
- Failed contraception.
- Rape.
I don't see the right to an abortion as
contingent upon government approval
of prior acts, or misfortune.

Me neither. It comes down to killing a human life.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I'm no expert on such things, but it did appear to me
that girls had an easier time sitting still...captive in
a schoolroom. It dint suit me...I was always hungry
& anxious to get out of there. Even by the time I
was in college, I stayed away from class as much
as I could get away with. Fortunately, some classes
could be handled entirely by textbook. In a couple
terms of thermodynamics, I attended less than a
dozen classes...still had to show up for tests.

I know others who just dint cope well with school.
They typically wound in a trade, using their hands,
& moving around physically a lot. I don't know how
to make schools more appropriate for the diversity
of students. We need some imaginative thoughtful
experts to weigh in.

I can agree that the school system needs to change. But the experts are in charge now, right?

 

[Revoltingest]

Me neither. It comes down to killing a human life.

To me it's a potential human life.
I give bodily autonomy priority to the mother.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can agree that the school system needs to change. But the experts are in charge now, right?

Experts come & go.
When gone, they're "ex spurts".

 

[crossfire]

The government is not dictating a woman must host an embryo. Most men and women make the free choice to have sex knowing the result could be a human living life.

The result could also be a sexually transmitted disease. Is it moral for the government to prohibit the treatment of an unwanted STD after it has been contracted?

It could also result in an ectopic pregnancy. It is moral for the government to prohibit the removal of an unwanted ectopic pregnancy?

What's the difference in removing an unwanted embryo from a fallopian tube and removing an unwanted embryo from a uterus?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The government is not forcing anyone to get pregnant. The immorality is killing a living human life that was conceived by a free choice to have sex by a man and a woman, which is almost all the cases.

Consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy. And medical consent can be revoked at any time. At no point is someone entitled to the use of another's body, even if they would die without it, or even if they were directly responsible (i.e. a drunk driving victim isn't entitled to the drunk driver's blood or organs, even if the driver was killed.)

And if it were somehow a fully conscious, sentient, sapient adult in there I'd still push for body autonomy. But it's not, and I'd sooner mandate vegetarianism than criminalize abortion when considering the actual ratios of suffering.

They expect little boys to act like little girls and sit for hours without real breaks.

*stifles a laugh* I could write a dissertation about the nonsense that goes into believing girls are better at sitting still than boys, and how ADHD and learning disabilities in girls is overlooked and repressed by telling them to suck it up and stick to gender expectations, to be quiet and respectful. Even though ADHD and autism is looking to be *far* more common in girls due to links to common hormone disorders like PCOS, women and girl's Healthcare needs are more frequently minimized or ignored in favor of studying and treating behavioral problems in men.

None of us sat well in class, we were all told to suck it up. But at least boys were given treatment options, counseling and assistance programs like AIM. Which rarely allowed girls.

This should be dealt with no doubt. Is this the only reason they don't want to be in the construction industry? I doubt it.

No, I gave other reasons, too, such as hiring discrimination and pay gaps. But please don't minimize how ****ed up such high rates of harassment and abuse are and how much it understandably puts women off those fields.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

To me it's a potential human life.
I give bodily autonomy priority to the mother.

Is it not human or alive?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy.

Sure it does. If I consent to a shower I am also consenting to getting wet. It is a possible consequence of my actions.

And medical consent can be revoked at any time. At no point is someone entitled to the use of another's body, even if they would die without it, or even if they were directly responsible (i.e. a drunk driving victim isn't entitled to the drunk driver's blood or organs, even if the driver was killed.)

The difference is the woman decided for the embryo to be created.

And if it were somehow a fully conscious, sentient, sapient adult in there I'd still push for body autonomy. But it's not, and I'd sooner mandate vegetarianism than criminalize abortion when considering the actual ratios of suffering.

ok, I disagree.

*stifles a laugh* I could write a dissertation about the nonsense that goes into believing girls are better at sitting still than boys, and how ADHD and learning disabilities in girls is overlooked and repressed by telling them to suck it up and stick to gender expectations, to be quiet and respectful. Even though ADHD and autism is looking to be *far* more common in girls due to links to common hormone disorders like PCOS, women and girl's Healthcare needs are more frequently minimized or ignored in favor of studying and treating behavioral problems in men.

Why do you think it is an either or proposition. Take care of women of men, girls and boys. My experience is the education system is about following rules and teaching social issues over basic educational subjects like math, English etc.

None of us sat well in class, we were all told to suck it up. But at least boys were given treatment options, counseling and assistance programs like AIM. Which rarely allowed girls.

You may be right.

No, I gave other reasons, too, such as hiring discrimination and pay gaps. But please don't minimize how ****ed up such high rates of harassment and abuse are and how much it understandably puts women off those fields.

So what do you tell women when they come up on discrimination?

 

[Revoltingest]

Is it not human or alive?

Those are the issues argued about.
My view....
It is human.
It is not a human.
It is living tissue.
It becomes alive at some point.

But I know that all views on this are arbitrary.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is it not human or alive?

Even if that is the case bodily autonomy trumps that.

 

[Heyo]

Debate about feminism: two guys arguing about abortion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Debate about feminism: two guys arguing about abortion.

Who has more right to argue about abortion, eh.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Sure it does. If I consent to a shower I am also consenting to getting wet. It is a possible consequence of my actions.

Consenting to taking a walk does not mean consenting to being mugged. Even though it's a possible consequence of talking a walk.

And this kind of logic literally works for no matter of medical consent. Choosing to have a kid does not make that kid then entitled to your body and tissue nor could you compel a parent to give it.

We don't punish literally anyone with loss of body autonomy regardless of their choices. Not even criminals. Not even corpses. Forced birth is literally given women less rights than corpses.

ok, I disagree

There is provably more suffering that happens when a cow is killed than a zygote or fetus. Has broader capacity to self actualize, feel pain, fear and sadness.
And I'm not a vegetarian, but I find it far more rational an argument than baseless human exceptionalism.

Why do you think it is an either or proposition.

I don't. Toxic masculinity and the patriarchy hurts both men and women, but men are currently in a better position to affect change due to systemic power imbalances which, although better than they have been in the past, are neither fully corrected nor 'settled law'. That's the whole point.

So what do you tell women when they come up on discrimination?

Theres entire courses on answering that question. Depends on the nature of the discrimination. E.g. wrongful/retaliatory termination or burying reports a sexual harassment complaint will have different plans of action than overcoming discriminatory metrics evaluations or discriminatory wage theft practices.

There's also broader appeals for access to legal counsel and getting other discrimination practices heard by unions, Osha, ACLA, etc.

 

[Curious George]

*stifles a laugh* I could write a dissertation about the nonsense that goes into believing girls are better at sitting still than boys, and how ADHD and learning disabilities in girls is overlooked and repressed by telling them to suck it up and stick to gender expectations, to be quiet and respectful. Even though ADHD and autism is looking to be *far* more common in girls due to links to common hormone disorders like PCOS, women and girl's Healthcare needs are more frequently minimized or ignored in favor of studying and treating behavioral problems in men.

None of us sat well in class, we were all told to suck it up. But at least boys were given treatment options, counseling and assistance programs like AIM. Which rarely allowed girls.

Just tossing it out there, there are plenty of issues faced by boys and men in our school system, justice system and culturally. It isn’t really anything over which to laugh at or to engage in a urinating contest.

I would make several notes though, take them as you will:

1) this was a digression into whataboutism. Those issues taken from a male perspective don’t really have a place in a discussion about feminism.

2) that some societal disparity results from our treatment of the sexes exists, does not challenge feminism nor does it offer any support for “each sex has its struggles” argument.

3) feminism does address these issues, but it does so from the a perspective of how these issues impact women. For instance, feminists played a huge role and continue to play a huge role in the challenging of rape laws, which in many instances overlooked male victims of rape.

4) much of the disparity that does exist is created by a cultural perspective which places a higher premium on masculine traits and devalues feminine. This last bit is not to say that individual males do not face real discrimination, challenges, and hurdles in their lives. They do. But, it is, in most cases, the very same system that is challenged by feminism that drives these.

I don’t think the issue is or ever has been which sex is better at “sitting still.” And I think it is naive and reflective of bias to attempt to distill the difference to that, as if to suggest that the problems faced by some boys in school would just disappear if “boys were allowed to be boys.”

Perhaps if this were a discussion elsewhere and not a mechanism to avoid addressing the need for feminism or the benefit of feminism, we could all analyze the issues and come to some agreement or understanding about the root causes of those issues. Since the discussion is not, I am just tossing a comment out to you, lest you find yourself entrenched in some rabbit hole only tangentially related to feminism in the first place.

cheers

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Those are the issues argued about.
My view....
It is human.
It is not a human.
It is living tissue.
It becomes alive at some point.

But I know that all views on this are arbitrary.

It fits the definition of human and living. I don't see how these can be argued it is not.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Even if that is the case bodily autonomy trumps that.

Why?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Consenting to taking a walk does not mean consenting to being mugged. Even though it's a possible consequence of talking a walk.

How does this help your arguement?

And this kind of logic literally works for no matter of medical consent. Choosing to have a kid does not make that kid then entitled to your body and tissue nor could you compel a parent to give it.

What you are missing is that there was a decision made to have sex and keeping a human life alive. If I gave my kidney to my child can I then later want it returned?

We don't punish literally anyone with loss of body autonomy regardless of their choices. Not even criminals. Not even corpses. Forced birth is literally given women less rights than corpses.

You again miss the rights of the human life of the human life.

There is provably more suffering that happens when a cow is killed than a zygote or fetus. Has broader capacity to self actualize, feel pain, fear and sadness.
And I'm not a vegetarian, but I find it far more rational an argument than baseless human exceptionalism.

That does not matter to the question if the human life has a right to life once created.

I don't. Toxic masculinity and the patriarchy hurts both men and women, but men are currently in a better position to affect change due to systemic power imbalances which, although better than they have been in the past, are neither fully corrected nor 'settled law'. That's the whole point.

Can you define toxic masculinity and patriarchy?