Do You Identify as a Feminist?

[Revoltingest]

I wasn't responding to any posts designating Amy Coney Barrett, Condleezza Rice, or Sarah Palin as feminists. In fact, I suspect at least two of those three women would object to being called a "feminist." Rather, I was expressing why I don't think they should be celebrated by any feminist movement that prioritizes human rights and dignity.

I'm not celebrating anyone.
So that's settled.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Right, you don't support women because they are women. You support women that you agree with politically or morally. So why be a feminist? People that call themselves feminists don't support women because they are women but because the women believe certain things.

What does it even mean to "support" someone in that context? I don't support politicians who enact harmful policies regardless of their gender. Amy Coney Barrett and Condoleezza Rice are no exception. Do you think feminists should celebrate Rice, for example, despite her role as a mouthpiece for the Bush administration's war crimes? Should her being a woman simply brush aside her actions and the effects thereof?

Feminism is about gender equality. The likes of Condoleezza Rice and Amy Coney Barrett should be subject to the same criticism as anyone else in their position, be they a man or a woman. If you're arguing that feminists should just support them regardless of their positions just because they're women, then that's not feminism. It's female supremacy.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Probably because traditionalists and pro life groups have worked so hard to limit freedoms for hundreds of years, so people are reticent to support the bludgeons that have and are being used to beat people.

Personaly I have no problem with any of those things so long as I'm not forced to be a part of it. But the fact of the matter is I am. Reproductive rights are being stripped from me in legislature every year, I wasn't allowed to get sterilized because the assumption was I would want children 'someday.' And there are still people trying to take away my choice to marry the sex and gender of my choice to this day.

Right, again you are not a feminist just support women you agree with, just like race, gender etc.

This is the same sort of BS as 'I dont see races' people say. Claiming they're egalitarian but really just wanting to ignore the inequalities that already exist. Because theoretical or legally permissive opportunity doesn't translate to actual opportunity. And women get bullied out of industries seen as male dominated all the time.

What can a man do that a woman cannot do in the US?

Meanwhile men are being hurt by their own casual misogyny by framing awareness and sensitivity to mental and emotional health struggles as 'unmanly, weak, girly.'

Women are poor helpless frail things that need help to succeed right? But men are their own problem. Men are the problem for everything I guess.

Do you think it is a problem that 99% of bricklayers are men in the US? Do you support programs to help the number of women bricklayer go up? or that only 10% of construction workers are women? The most dangerous jobs are still predominantly done by men. Why are there never any feminists interested in making these jobs more accessible to women?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What does it even mean to "support" someone in that context? I don't support politicians who enact harmful policies regardless of their gender. Amy Coney Barrett and Condoleezza Rice are no exception. Do you think feminists should celebrate Rice, for example, despite her role as a mouthpiece for the Bush administration's war crimes? Should her being a woman simply brush aside her actions and the effects thereof?

Feminism is about gender equality. The likes of Condoleezza Rice and Amy Coney Barrett should be subject to the same criticism as anyone else in their position, be they a man or a woman. If you're arguing that feminists should just support them regardless of their positions just because they're women, then that's not feminism. It's female supremacy.

That is not what I am saying. You should not support a woman because they are a woman. I am saying you and all people support certain women's equality, the ones that they agree with. It does not have anything to do with their gender.

So what do you mean by supporting gender equality?

 

[Debater Slayer]

That is not what I am saying. You should not support a woman because they are a woman. I am saying you and all people support certain women's equality, the ones that they agree with. It does not have anything to do with their gender.

So what do you mean by supporting gender equality?

What I mean is that I support gender equality for all women. I'll point to Amy Coney Barrett as an example to illustrate my views:

• I overwhelmingly oppose her political views and believe they're harmful. At the same time, I believe she should have equal opportunity to a man to advance in her career and be assessed on the merits of her relevant qualifications, not based on her gender.

• I believe she should be criticized just as a man in her position should be. I also believe she should never be targeted with sexist slurs, gendered insults, or dismissal based on her gender.

• I support her right to live however she wishes provided she doesn't try to impose her worldview on others. The moment she tries to force others to live according to her beliefs, she should be called out on that and strongly criticized.

There's a vast difference between supporting someone's rights and holding them up as an example to follow.

 

[Heyo]

Condoleezza Rice was an aide to Bush and Cheney, two bona fide war criminals. She was a mouthpiece of one of the most warmongering and criminal administrations in the history of the US, who all participated in killing half a million Iraqis. It seems to me that she's an example to shun and learn not to repeat, not one to celebrate or regard as a feminist icon.

Amy Coney Barrett voted to reverse Roe v. Wade and take away the reproductive rights of millions of women in the process. This isn't even a matter of which political camp she's on; it's a matter of the harm she has done to many other women and girls through her position of power. The fact that a 10-year-old rape victim had to travel between states just to get an abortion is a dark reflection on Amy Coney Barrett and the other justices who voted to reverse Roe v. Wade. It doesn't seem to me to be something to celebrate in the slightest, at least not for anyone who values human rights and dignity.

As for Sarah Palin, this is the same unhinged person who supported waterboarding. Do you think someone with these morals or worldview should be upheld as a feminist example of success? I don't. In fact, if she were upheld as such, I think that would be a moral and intellectual failure on the part of the feminist movement.

I do believe that people should be able to live however they want as long as they harm no one. The moment they act as a mouthpiece for killing over half a million people, participate in reversing federal protection of reproductive rights and harm millions of women in the process, or support waterboarding not even several years after their country's administration widens use of torture overseas, they become complicit in harming others and therefore can't really claim that the effects of their views are limited to them or their own families. Of course the feminist movement doesn't embrace people like them.

"What good is it to have a female leader, if she's still a ****?"

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What I mean is that I support gender equality for all women. I'll point to Amy Coney Barrett as an example to illustrate my views:

• I overwhelmingly oppose her political views and believe they're harmful. At the same time, I believe she should have equal opportunity to a man to advance in her career and be assessed on the merits of her relevant qualifications, not based on her gender.

• I believe she should be criticized just as a man in her position should be. I also believe she should never be targeted with sexist slurs, gendered insults, or dismissal based on her gender.

• I support her right to live however she wishes provided she doesn't try to impose her worldview on others. The moment she tries to force others to live according to her beliefs, she should be called out on that and strongly criticized.

There's a vast difference between supporting someone's rights and holding them up as an example to follow.

I agree. I never said you needed to support her because she is a woman. But how do you support her gender equality?

 

[Quintessence]

Feminism is the radical notion that women are, in fact, people.

Such a radical notion was born out of the patriarchal culture that had decided women were somehow not people. This same culture also brought us the decision that non-white humans are also not people. And that non-heterosexual humans are not people. And that many heterosexual white males aren't people either if they lack power and wealth.

Basically, if you aren't a heterosexual white male elite you should probably be a feminist. And civil rights advocate. And LGBTQ+ ally. And support unions.

 

[crossfire]

In the US feminisms is not about supporting women's choices but about supporting an ideology. Try saying you are a feminist and be prolife, pro traditional family, stay at home mom etc. They will bully you endlessly. My wife has lived it. Successful women are only honored when they are on the left, two examples are Amy Barret & Condoleezza Rice. Sarah Palin was endlessly mocked and bullied as being an idiot but Kamala Harris is honored and she is an actual idiot. Two powerful women treated differently by "feminists" because of ideology. Compare Barret and Jackson as well. It is not about supporting women's choices but supporting women that make the "right" choices or believe the "right" things.

I'm a feminist and I think women who choose to be stay-at-home moms in traditional families are admirable, and I respect their choice to do so. I also agree with you about Kamala Harris.

Just like everything else in the US right now whether it be race, gender, sex, science, education etc. it is about the lefts ideology not actually helping people and society.

I am a peoplist, supporting peoples right to freely live the life they want without bullying or worse as long as it is legal and does not harm others.

Does that include a woman's right to choose to end a pregnancy?

Lets support people not one group at a time. After all there is not one thing a woman cannot do or accomplish in the US and men are falling behind in a lot of important areas because they are not being supported.

I agree with you that we need to help out young men and think twice before drugging them with psychiatric drugs when they are young.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Right, again you are not a feminist just support women you agree with, just like race, gender etc.

Sounds like projection on your part. You want women who champion your brand of antiquated conservative values to be known as the 'real' feminists. Even if what they're the championing is lack of choice.

What can a man do that a woman cannot do in the US?

Have all the audacity.

Women are poor helpless frail things that need help to succeed right? But men are their own problem. Men are the problem for everything I guess.

Men are certainly in a place to affect change having control of the vast majority of social, financial and religious power in the world.

So maybe stop complaining to women about being left behind by men in a thread about feminism.

Or if you are going to complain, at least have the nuance capability to talk about why men feel like they're 'not allowed' by society to seek out mental healthcare or have intimate non-sexual relationships with other men or why they feel entitled to a woman and children while women are overwhelmingly more happy single and childless.

Do you think it is a problem that 99% of bricklayers are men in the US? Do you support programs to help the number of women bricklayer go up? or that only 10% of construction workers are women? The most dangerous jobs are still predominantly done by men. Why are there never any feminists interested in making these jobs more accessible to women?

Have you ever actually talked to a single woman in those professions? Heard their stories?

Because I do lots of my rescue training with women paramedics and firefighters and do you know why a lot don't stick around?
Because the men there are ****ing awful to them. Targeted harassment, both verbal abuse and sexual harassment, at a rate that's unconscionable.

I also work in a male dominated field, and there's a reason I work as a sole proprietary in my own clinic, and am *very* selective about my networking.

And yeah, I do participate in local level affirmative action groups for my profession. It includes lots of ethics training requirements as well as training how to utilize anti-discrimination law, and how to recognize when you're being taken advantage of and your legal recourse.

 

[Heyo]

I'm not a feminist because I think women can pretty well handle themselves. They don't need me. And if they do, they can ask. I may defend women who are in a minority or treated unfairly - just as I would anyone who is in a minority or treated unfairly - when it occurs before my eyes; I don't go out of my way for it.
I'm that kind of misogynist who hands a woman an angle grinder if she asks for it but doesn't offer to do the work for her.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I'm a feminist and I think women who choose to be stay-at-home moms in traditional families are admirable, and I respect their choice to do so. I also agree with you about Kamala Harris.

Of course I did not mean all feminists. But the feminists the media and the left promote don't like that choice.

Does that include a woman's right to choose to end a pregnancy?

No. That causes harm to another living human.

I agree with you that we need to help out young men and think twice before drugging them with psychiatric drugs when they are young.

The school systems want little boys to act like little girls.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Sounds like projection on your part. You want women who champion your brand of antiquated conservative values to be known as the 'real' feminists. Even if what they're the championing is lack of choice.

I don't want anyone to be labeled a feminist. All I want is all women's choices to be valued as long as they are legal and moral.

Have all the audacity.

So you don't have an answer. That is because there is nothing a man can do that a women cannot do as well in the US. In fact in most states women have an additional right a man does not have and that is to end a human life.

Men are certainly in a place to affect change having control of the vast majority of social, financial and religious power in the world.

So women are helpless? I don't think so. There are plenty of powerful and influential women in the US. There is nothing stopping women to be powerful and influential that does not stop a man from the same.

So maybe stop complaining to women about being left behind by men in a thread about feminism.

Do you not care that gap between men and women entering college is growing? I bet if the numbers were the other way around you would think there is more work to do to obtain equality on the issue.

Or if you are going to complain, at least have the nuance capability to talk about why men feel like they're 'not allowed' by society to seek out mental healthcare or have intimate non-sexual relationships with other men or why they feel entitled to a woman and children while women are overwhelmingly more happy single and childless.

None of these describe the men know can you show me this is the norm? If women want to be single and childless then fine, I don't care.

Have you ever actually talked to a single woman in those professions? Heard their stories?

I know women in the construction industry. Sounds like you are going to blame men for men dominated fields.

Because I do lots of my rescue training with women paramedics and firefighters and do you know why a lot don't stick around?
Because the men there are ****ing awful to them. Targeted harassment, both verbal abuse and sexual harassment, at a rate that's unconscionable.

I agree it is awful when that happens. Can you show me that is the norm?

I also work in a male dominated field, and there's a reason I work as a sole proprietary in my own clinic, and am *very* selective about my networking.

I work in a male dominated profession as well. Most of the men I work with are respectful to the women in the industry and I don't put up with any kind of inappropriate talk in my presence. This is more of the norm now than it ever has been. The women in my profession that are more successful than I am is because they are smarter and worked harder than me and did not have the victimhood mentality.

And yeah, I do participate in local level affirmative action groups for my profession. It includes lots of ethics training requirements as well as training how to utilize anti-discrimination law, and how to recognize when you're being taken advantage of and your legal recourse.

Good. I think you need to give women more credit than you give them. They can do whatever men can do. It is not easy for men either and we have no one we can blame, women can be awful to men too. Fight for equality, fight against harassment and such, I do, but don't let women believe they are perpetual victims. It is not 1960 anymore.

 

[LuisDantas]

In the US feminisms is not about supporting women's choices but about supporting an ideology. Try saying you are a feminist and be prolife, pro traditional family, stay at home mom etc. They will bully you endlessly. My wife has lived it. Successful women are only honored when they are on the left, two examples are Amy Barret & Condoleezza Rice. Sarah Palin was endlessly mocked and bullied as being an idiot but Kamala Harris is honored and she is an actual idiot. Two powerful women treated differently by "feminists" because of ideology. Compare Barret and Jackson as well. It is not about supporting women's choices but supporting women that make the "right" choices or believe the "right" things.

Sigh.

Are you really going to attempt that tired old song?

It hardly flies to claim that Sarah Palin is a victim of ill speak while Kamala Harris "really is an idiot".

For shame. Get a mirror.

 

[Secret Chief]

Thatcher, a **** supreme.

 

[crossfire]

No. That causes harm to another living human.

The pregnancy itself causes harm to the pregnant woman. Banning abortion care will lower the fertility rate, so more women who want to become pregnant will find it more difficult to maintain a pregnancy if they can conceive. (Aftercare for a miscarriage is the same as an early abortion. It's already happening in Texas. You and I have already had this conversation.)

 

[crossfire]

No. That causes harm to another living human.

An embryo is not an innocent human being. If it implants outside of the uterus, if it is not removed, chances are you are gonna die, as will the embryo. Once it implants, it can't be moved to safer place. The embryo does not care about the welfare of the host.

The uterus is a woman's defense mechanism to help her survive the implantation of an embryo.

Even if the embryo implants in the uterus, there is no guarantee that a woman will survive, much less the embryo.

Knowing this, I can't blame a woman for wanting to remove an unwelcome embryo. However, can I also admire a woman for choosing to lay her life on the line to take the risk of endangering her health and well-being to host an embryo to viability and then guide it to become a mature human being. It's not my place, nor anyone else's place, to make that decision and commitment for another human being.

Would you want the government dictating that you must host an embryo, whether you have the defensive mechanism of a uterus or not?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I don't want anyone to be labeled a feminist. All I want is all women's choices to be valued as long as they are legal and moral.

Forced birth is immoral.

So you don't have an answer.

I answered you a long time ago, you ignored it. You equate potential opportunity as actual opportunity. Which blinds people to inequality so long as the law *appears* to be egalitarian but in practice is not.

Likewise I'm sure you dismiss things out of hand which show inequality such as pay gap, hiring discrimination, rates of sexual assault and sexual harassment, etc

So women are helpless? I don't think so. There are plenty of powerful and influential women in the US. There is nothing stopping women to be powerful and influential that does not stop a man from the same.

Women have a distinctly less power or means of affecting change =/= Women are helpless. But it does mean that they have to struggle and should speak out on that struggle and on that imbalance.

Do you not care that gap between men and women entering college is growing? I bet if the numbers were the other way around you would think there is more work to do to obtain equality on the issue.

If you actually read the reported reasons, half of those male respondants say they *don't want to go to college.* split evenly between 'don't think college is worthwhile' and 'don't need more education for their trade career path.'

I care that right conservative philosophy frames educational institutions as worthless mouthpieces of the left and shun education that they have more wealth to access than any other demographic. I also care that the religious background I came from was rife with 'college is worldly amd of the devil and should be avoided.'

They had these views because higher education doesnt support their antiquated views of history, civics, science.

I know women in the construction industry. Sounds like you are going to blame men for men dominated fields.

Sounds like you're going to ignore their stories just because it's not something you personally see, as if this happens with open doors.

I work in a male dominated profession as well. Most of the men I work with are respectful to the women in the industry and I don't put up with any kind of inappropriate talk in my presence. This is more of the norm now than it ever has been.

No it isn't. Lol.

NIOSH found that, in a one year period, 41% of female construction workers suffered from gender harassment. In the CWIT study, 88% of the respondents reported sexual harassment.

Isolation - working as the only female on a job site or being ostracized by co-workers - evokes both fear of assault and stress. Many tradeswomen report that they are reluctant to report workplace safety and health problems lest they be tagged as complainers or whiners, straining further their workplace relationships and jeopardizing their employment situation.

Women in the Construction Workplace: Providing Equitable Safety and Health Protection | Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

 

[Revoltingest]

The school systems want little boys to act like little girls.

I'm no expert on such things, but it did appear to me
that girls had an easier time sitting still...captive in
a schoolroom. It dint suit me...I was always hungry
& anxious to get out of there. Even by the time I
was in college, I stayed away from class as much
as I could get away with. Fortunately, some classes
could be handled entirely by textbook. In a couple
terms of thermodynamics, I attended less than a
dozen classes...still had to show up for tests.

I know others who just dint cope well with school.
They typically wound in a trade, using their hands,
& moving around physically a lot. I don't know how
to make schools more appropriate for the diversity
of students. We need some imaginative thoughtful
experts to weigh in.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The pregnancy itself causes harm to the pregnant woman. Banning abortion care will lower the fertility rate, so more women who want to become pregnant will find it more difficult to maintain a pregnancy if they can conceive. (Aftercare for a miscarriage is the same as an early abortion. It's already happening in Texas. You and I have already had this conversation.)

Ok