Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Super Universe]

I believe in things that are logical, that can be proven and that can be tested. I don't believe in fairy tales, you appear to enjoy writing fairy tales though.

But how is believing in God just like a fairy tale?

How is disbelief logical?

 

[camanintx]

Big bang caused by the simple combination of gravity and nuclear forces. Uhh... there's nothing simple about it.

Non-intelligent natural forces capable of the big bang? So, then you think these non-intelligent natural forces created the Pieta? The Fifth Symphony? Did they create a computer? Did they ever cause lava to form a Samurai Sword?

Please learn how to read. I didn't say anything about what caused the Big Bang. I didn't even say there was a Big Bang.

All we know is that some 15 billion years ago, the universe was a dense, chaotic mass of energy and now it is full of stars and planets and nebula and all sorts of beautiful objects. What may have existed before that point and what may have caused it is pure speculation, but that doesn't prove that God exists. Until you can show how natural forces are NOT capable of producing a Big Bang, I see no reason to invoke any God concept to explain anything.

 

[Panda]

But how is believing in God just like a fairy tale?

You believe in God with no evidence to support it, you make huge claims with nothing to support it and when you are asked to give real proof you ignore it.

How is disbelief logical?

Disbelieving in something that can not be proven to be true is always the logical choice.

 

[camanintx]

If I were a truly open minded person then I would say the evidence is inconclusive to believe in God or not believe.

Until someone produces A) a reason why there has to be a God, and B) a logically consistent definition of what that God is, I will start from the assumption that no such thing exists. As has been often said, don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not being stupid. It's a perfect question.

Now, how did the atom create itself so perfect? Must have been a series of highly fortunate accidents and all in a perfect order.

Did someone say that the atom created itself?

 

[Autodidact]

No. Your view is quite lacking. Have you ever seen a baby being born? It's perfect.

Except when it isn't.

Once again, my proof is the universe. Where's yours?

In that case your proof is missing a step. 1. The universe exists. 2. ____________ 3. Therefore, God exists.

You don't have to prove God doesn't exist? Why not? Must be awfully convenient for you, I guess that's why you made it up that way, believing things without any proof whatsoever.

That would be you. Why don't you believe in all the other Gods? Why don't you believe in fairies, or unicorns, or the invisible dragon in my garage? It's not that I believe something without proof, it's that I don't believe in something (God) without evidence.

 

[Autodidact]

Okay...



Wanna see it again?

Got it, and thank you for definitively proving that God does not exist by posting a picture of nothing.

 

[Autodidact]

Umm, you're not actually expecting me to believe that fabrication are you? There are crazy people who see UFO's too!

Once again, provide some proof or quit making positive claims!

Would you be satisfied with mere evidence?

Notice any difference between that and your picture of God? Here, want some more?

 

[Autodidact]

But are all things equal?

Even if they were, which is more simple:

1) That a series of extremely precise accidents formed particles, the physical laws, time, the universe and life, and all in an extremely precise order

or

2) Intelligence is behind it all

You could care less if God exists? Sure, go on with your life. It's yours to live as you wish. But... why are you here, on RF, then?

Or, most likely of all...WE DON'T KNOW. Wrong explanations are worse than none.

 

[Autodidact]

Hmm, a good chance of killing the woman? Hardly. How does any population survive and grow to 6 billion when there's a good chance that both the baby and mother die?

He didn't say, "and the baby." Obviously, from all the ones that don't die. Duh.

God does exist. People don't see the evidence for God for a number of reasons but their ego's are the main thing interfering. I cannot justifying something when absolute evidence of that thing is provided and people still refuse to accept it.

Still waiting for it. What is it? btw, how about some logical argument, instead of just insulting the people who disagree with you?

My purpose was not to sway anyone. I just wanted to ask, "Do you know why you don't believe?" Nobody's mind is going to change regardless of the logic or evidence provided. That's the whole point of this exercise. Stop being so afraid and relax, I'm not going to make you into a Catholic.

Yes, I know very well exactly why.

 

[Autodidact]

Vision, yes! Go watch children playing. Watch a family out for dinner. Watch someone sleep.

So you're claiming that these things are God?

Hearing, yes! Listen to children playing. Listen to the wind blow through the trees. Listen to people talking in a crowded bar.

= God?

Smell? Smell the flowers. Smell the air just before it rains. Smell the ocean spray.

So God = everything? Or the first cause, which?

I defined God as First Cause. You're the one who thinks this is all He is. You made the box, not I.

No, Super, it's your definition. I imposed no requirements, just asked you to define your terms. So God is the first cause, and people talking in a crowded bar, and can be perceived as a picture of nothing, and can be perceived with the senses?

If God = everything, then why need a word for God?

I can see children. Can I see God, apart from children?

 

[Autodidact]

Why do we need to introduce the concept of God? You don't. You could just say "I don't know".

So you're an agnostic then?

 

[Autodidact]

But how could it be rerun? The thing is, the universe not only had to create itself with in almost infinite degree of precision, it also had to do it right the first time.

Once you try to create a universe and it fails. Game over! There is no second attempt.

AND YOU KNOW THIS HOW?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes it does.

Sez you. Now convince us. Lay out the argument.

 

[Autodidact]

It's readily apparent. Why don't you know this?

That's easy. Because it's not true. No, it's not readily apparent, as is evident from the many people who disagree. Saying it's readily apparent is not the same thing as convincing us. Evidence would help.

 

[Autodidact]

You don't need abiogenesis to work in order to believe in it? I don't doubt it. Seems you're not the only athiest around here who chooses to believe something without any evidence whatsoever.

That's not what you said. You said I can't do it. That's O.K., nature did it for me. I don't "believe in" things. I accept what science shows. I don't think we know yet how abiogenesis works, so I don't know how life came to be. That's O.K. with me. I'm fine with "I don't know.' I think that's much better than making stuff up.

So, how exactly, do particles start over and create a universe when they've formed an infinite gravity well?

Pardon? I'm sorry, I'm not a cosmology expert.

Multiverse is beyond you? Think of a pool of water eleven feet deep. Each foot separates a dimension but really there is no real wall or fence separating them. We just use a foot to number the dimensions because that is the most generally accepted measurement (and other reasons that would really make this confusing).

Whatever. This had nothing to do with multiverse theory.

And heaven is... the surface.

How about if you give us all a break and stop making unsupported assertions, O.K.?

 

[Autodidact]

Okay, maybe the atom alone is not enough evidence for you.

How about the universe?

How about the Earth?

How about life?

Think of how intelligent humans are and yet, we barely understand it all. How could there NOT be intelligence be at work, at least, in some way?

I have never observed an intelligence without a brain, have you? I think natural laws and processes explain most of it, and look forward to learning about the rest.

 

[Super Universe]

Please learn how to read. I didn't say anything about what caused the Big Bang. I didn't even say there was a Big Bang.

All we know is that some 15 billion years ago, the universe was a dense, chaotic mass of energy and now it is full of stars and planets and nebula and all sorts of beautiful objects. What may have existed before that point and what may have caused it is pure speculation, but that doesn't prove that God exists. Until you can show how natural forces are NOT capable of producing a Big Bang, I see no reason to invoke any God concept to explain anything.

Uh, you don't know what the universe was, you barely know what it is now.

Until I prove that natural forces are not capable of producing a Big Bang? Hmm, so you are upset that I use the term "Big Bang" but then you can use it when you see fit?

Anyway, nothing in your understanding of any natural force leads to the possibility that it, or a combination thereof, could produce a "Big Bang". So, basically, you have a universe that you don't have any idea where it, or anything in existence, came from.

Yet you still believe things exist, or do you? Probably just the ones that suit you and don't require you to give up any of your individuality, right?

 

[Super Universe]

You believe in God with no evidence to support it, you make huge claims with nothing to support it and when you are asked to give real proof you ignore it.

Disbelieving in something that can not be proven to be true is always the logical choice.

I have more evidence than you do. You have nothing to support your claim that God didn't create it. Where's your real proof of anything? How about it?

How logical is disbelieving in something that can be proven? You just have to... understand it. Hmm, understand? Figure it out? Kind of sounds like the way the rest of the universe works, doesn't it?

Until then, you won't believe because... you can't.

 

[Super Universe]

Until someone produces A) a reason why there has to be a God, and B) a logically consistent definition of what that God is, I will start from the assumption that no such thing exists. As has been often said, don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.

Ah, you have to have a reason to believe in God? You need a benefit, a return? And people ask what ego has to do with it?