Do you own the USA? (Closed/open border debate)

[mikkel_the_dane]

The US takes in legally about 60k refugees a year.

U.S. immigration - refugee admissions FY 1990-2023 | Statista

During the fiscal year of 2023, 60,014 refugees were admitted to the United States.

www.statista.com

Yeah, but is that more or less than other countries per capita?

 

[Kathryn]

Yeah, but is that more or less than other countries per capita?

I don't know. The number also varies a lot from the 1990s onward.

 

[Heyo]

The US takes in legally about 60k refugees a year.

U.S. immigration - refugee admissions FY 1990-2023 | Statista

During the fiscal year of 2023, 60,014 refugees were admitted to the United States.

www.statista.com

Germany took in about 72k refugees last year.

German: Ministry for refugees - Statistics (pdf)

 

[Kathryn]

Germany took in about 72k refugees last year.

German: Ministry for refugees - Statistics (pdf)

Well, there's this thing called a war going on nearby.

 

[Nakosis]

Do I own the United States?
Part of it, some of it. I certainly pay a lot of money to live here, support it.

The problem is not immigration. My wife and much of her family immigrated to the US. The problem is undocumented immigration. Certainly the people who live here, support the nation, pay for its existence should have knowledge of who is coming here. No doubt a majority of those folks want to come here and contribute along with the rest of us. No problem. Just doesn't take a lot of bad apples to spoil the quality of living for all who live in this nation. We should know who is coming in so the quality of life remains high for both people who are born here as well as those who are willing to come here and contribute to a better life for all.

 

[Heyo]

Well, there's this thing called a war going on nearby.

Yep, and this time it isn't the US who started it. But there are still more people coming from the region the US has destroyed. In other words, we are picking up your slack.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The US has a major image problem. People from Latin America still think that the USA are a land of opportunity, while the truth is that the USA is broke and broken.

Earlier I was thinking about all of this a little more, and I was thinking that people who lack ownership roots in u.s. property must constantly both spend and work to live, whereas if the population was allowed to naturally drop a bit (we don't have a replacement level birth-rate I don't think), then that would seem like an economic endgame where individuals would consolidate wealth, as opposed to landlords, big corporations, and probably government getting more of it. But I lost my train of thought before I got here, on some other point I had with that

But since immigrants will likely need to work more and spend more, they cannot keep their money, and so then that means they keep money flowing. But I had some other point that I forgot along with that

If the population dropped, and people kept their wealth, then gdp would go down, and government could not then add to the national debt as easily. There would be a lot less production to tax

 

[amorphous_constellation]

How does illegal immigration hurt you personally? What is it you have to "tolerate"?

This story isn't hurting me personally, as the story is from several states away from me, but I could imagine that if someone was trying to work full-time and live in the place in question, it would make them scared and concerned. I listen to several left wing youtube channels, and I don't see them covering this story, when I think they should. It would be nice if they'd cover it, and convince me with their analysis about how this issue can be solved within the framework of their leftism. I don't have much time to learn about the root causes of what is going on here, as I'm a tired night shift worker, and the burden of explanation is kind of on the leftists, if they like to open the borders more than others

And to your broader theme, of 'anarchism,' I just don't think people can be stateless really. Yeah, I read 'on anarchism' by noam chomsky, but I think people organize by default. The only way they could really govern themselves, is if they were highly educated to behave superbly well, and I don't really see that in people.

 

[Pogo]

This story isn't hurting me personally, as the story is from several states away from me, but I could imagine that if someone was trying to work full-time and live in the place in question, it would make them scared and concerned. I listen to several left wing youtube channels, and I don't see them covering this story, when I think they should.

You could also understand that it doesn't effect you generally because it is very rare and this is a scare tactic video that is about a gang that could be any disaffected group. It is actually unlikely to be migrants as they are generally very quiet as they don't want to be noticed and meet the boys in blue.
as stated in the video, the larger jurisdiction (Denver) finds this scenario improbable and the video on repeat is so confused one cant even say what it is, a party, a bunch of people after a soccer game, a raid by plainclothsmen, what?

What I saw of the video is an overzealous l E O trying to hype a video for propaganda value.
Sorry.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

You could also understand that it doesn't effect you generally because it is very rare and this is a scare tactic video that is about a gang that could be any disaffected group. It is actually unlikely to be migrants as they are generally very quiet as they don't want to be noticed and meet the boys in blue.
as stated in the video, the larger jurisdiction (Denver) finds this scenario improbable and the video on repeat is so confused one cant even say what it is, a party, a bunch of people after a soccer game, a raid by plainclothsmen, what?

What I saw of the video is an overzealous l E O trying to hype a video for propaganda value.
Sorry.

It could be as you say, I don't know. I try to read / listen to what I can on modern political issues, and if I didn't go to work in an hour and had some energy, I'd start reading more about this story right now. But yeah, it does seem confusing and opaque, and to me that's irritating. You sum it up to be propaganda and say it's 'overzealous.' That's fine, but that just adds more questions, because those obviously aren't good qualities to have in the news, if what you say is correct

 

[Pogo]

It could be as you say, I don't know. I try to read / listen to what I can on modern political issues, and if I didn't go to work in an hour and had some energy, I'd start reading more about this story right now. But yeah, it does seem confusing and opaque, and to me that's irritating. You sum it up to be propaganda and say it's 'overzealous.' That's fine, but that just adds more questions, because those obviously aren't good qualities to have in the news, if what you say is correct

Unfortunately it is what television news has become. It is largely hype to attract viewers with very little relevance to any real person's experience.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Unfortunately it is what television news has become. It is largely hype to attract viewers with very little relevance to any real person's experience.

There are also many different people saying many different things. Considering my time constraints, that I means I have to trust someone. Who do I trust, and why?

 

[Pogo]

There are also many different people saying many different things. Considering my time constraints, that I means I have to trust someone. Who do I trust, and why?

This is a good resource for an analysis of media reliability, start with a few of the sources at the peak of the chart and see how they present information, with a little practice you will be able to recognize the differences in quality and be able to analyze most sources for value or hype on individual pieces.
go to the website and play with it, it is much more valuable than time spent watching CNN or Fox,

Interactive Media Bias Chart | Ad Fontes Media

The Interactive Media Bias Chart offers the ability to search from among the thousands of rated web/print, TV and podcast sources.

adfontesmedia.com

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well I guess this should put everyone's mind at ease. Although I didn't hear anything that really addresses the images in the previous video, they say it's alright now.. Should I remain confused, or should I allow myself be convinced that I am now hearing the truth?

 

[Pogo]

Well I guess this should put everyone's mind at ease. Although I didn't hear anything that really addresses the images in the previous video, they say it's alright now.. Should I remain confused, or should I allow myself be convinced that I am now hearing the truth?

you should realize that the hype you heard before was just that as I suspected from its presentation.
What probably happened, somebody who watches too much Trump saw some Hispanic people visiting and called the police thinking they were "illegal alien gang members here to rape our dogs and steal our wives" like Trump keeps saying. The police investigate and there is nothing to it.
If there was a gang in that apartment, they would in all likelihood all be American citizens.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

you should realize that the hype you heard before was just that as I suspected from its presentation.

I think the notion of me having to detect the nuances of 'presentation' is interesting. Do you think that whenever one watches the news, they must be incredibly keen on presentation? Is 'presentation' the real language underlying all others? If I just hear words, or watch images, and don't pay attention to presentation, then it seems like I am missing the major 'unsaid' thing about whatever it is I am watching

 

[Pogo]

I think the notion of me having to detect the nuances of 'presentation' is interesting. Do you think that whenever one watches the news, they must be incredibly keen on presentation? Is 'presentation' the real language underlying all others? If I just hear words, or watch images, and don't pay attention to presentation, then it seems like I am missing the major 'unsaid' thing about whatever it is I am watching

No it is practice, the manner the original video was presented in was as if there was a major event happening and the male was very worried, but the words were all speculative and without evidence except for a very unclear video. It is practice, but I don't even watch TV news because this problem describes most of it. Read a good national paper and the local paper which will tell you what happened after the fact, but also after it has been investigated, not right when "someone sees something."
The world is not nearly as scary as the news makes out.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Read a good national paper and the local paper which will tell you what happened after the fact,

I agree that the study of history is far easier to analyze than the analysis of events in the present

Although one can imagine scenarios in the world, where good people do not speak up out of intimidation from bad ones, and that it might even be possible that government doesn't protect citizens because bad ones somehow influence them not to. Do you think these sorts of things ever happen?

 

[Pogo]

I agree that the study of history is far easier to analyze than the analysis of events in the present

Although one can imagine scenarios in the world, where good people do not speak up out of intimidation from bad ones, and that it might even be possible that government doesn't protect citizens because bad ones somehow influence them not to. Do you think these sorts of things ever happen?

Look at Donald Trump who has cowed the Republican party into doing whatever he asks even though they know it is not in their long term interest just by threatening to primary them.