Do you own the USA? (Closed/open border debate)

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't know - I don't control anything.

I ment you as the USA.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes. We need to know who is in our country.

About 300 million people, almost all immigrants or descended from recent immigrants. What else do you need to know?

 

[Kathryn]

About 300 million people, almost all immigrants or descended from recent immigrants. What else do you need to know?

Like, are they criminals, or have a criminal background, or are they sick with something we've eradicated, that sort of thing. And my family has been in what is now the US since the mid 1600s.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Like, are they criminals, or have a criminal background, or are they sick with something we've eradicated, that sort of thing. And my family has been in what is now the US since the mid 1600s.

Yes, some Americans are criminals. You get that everywhere.

I have furniture that is older than your country btw

 

[Heyo]

How would we give back land that was taken 400 years ago? To who? What tribes?

Ah, you try to change the subject, so we are getting somewhere. Do I interpret your failure to answer my question right when I say that we agree that there is no statute of limitation for property theft?

 

[Heyo]

When those in powers say so. That’s the practical reality. And I’m not saying it’s right, but borders and occupants of land change all the time.

So, might makes right? And now you fear other people coming over could be as bad as your ancestors?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I live really close to the US/Mexico border.

Many people I've talked to or heard from in my community vote for Trump because "He is going to stop the illegal immigrants from coming into our country and stealing our jobs."

In this thread, I want to talk about the idea of our country and our jobs.

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life. It seems that people who are against "illegal immigration" are worried that there is not enough quality of life to go around. This is apparent with them bringing up "our jobs". The fear they have is they won't be able to get a job if everyone is free to come to the USA. Trump supporters think they have some sort of dibs on the quality of life in America.

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

Is this line of reasoning true? Even if it is, I think it is selfish and we should allow immigrants/refugees a chance to travel to America.

I also ask if an American has dibs on quality of life? Refugees aren't our problem, and if they have a chance to make something for themselves in America, then that will somehow negatively affect me!... Or the thinking seems to go. I think it is wrong thought. You, as an American, have no more of a right to quality of life than someone who is not an American.

Well, they're not our responsibility. The entire world is not our responsibility, especially when our own people are suffering and cannot get any relief. They can pursue their happiness in their own countries or elsewhere. And there are not infinite jobs and resources, that's just the truth. We're already in a major housing crisis, an explosion of homelessness and jobs aren't hiring anymore. There's not enough to go around even for US citizens.

 

[Heyo]

Well, they're not our responsibility. The entire world is not our responsibility, especially when our own people are suffering and cannot get any relief. They can pursue their happiness in their own countries or elsewhere. And there are not infinite jobs and resources, that's just the truth. We're already in a major housing crisis, an explosion of homelessness and jobs aren't hiring anymore. There's not enough to go around even for US citizens.

The US has a major image problem. People from Latin America still think that the USA are a land of opportunity, while the truth is that the USA is broke and broken. They can't feed or house their own population and have a failing democracy. Maybe more people should be as honest as you and admit how deep the **** is you're in.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The US has a major image problem. People from Latin America still think that the USA are a land of opportunity, while the truth is that the USA is broke and broken. They can't feed or house their own population and have a failing democracy. Maybe more people should be as honest as you and admit how deep the **** is you're in.

That's very true, actually. These people have definitely been sold propaganda (lies), from various individuals and groups, which leads to them to think it's a sort of paradise here. They think everything is great here, with unlimited handouts and opportunities. Many of them are human trafficking victims and the traffickers tell them a bunch of great sounding lies to lure them here and extort them.

 

[Watchmen]

So, might makes right? And now you fear other people coming over could be as bad as your ancestors?

I literally said, “I’m not saying it’s right.” But it’s a practical reality that cannot be ignored. Borders and people change. A map of the world today…from 20 years ago…. 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, a 1,000 years ago and so on will all be very different.

 

[Kathryn]

Ah, you try to change the subject, so we are getting somewhere. Do I interpret your failure to answer my question right when I say that we agree that there is no statute of limitation for property theft?

Like I said, how do we go about giving back something that someone may have taken from someone 400 years later? Who do we give it back to? What tribes? Who do we take it from? People who never stole a thing in their lives?

 

[InChrist]

I live really close to the US/Mexico border.

Many people I've talked to or heard from in my community vote for Trump because "He is going to stop the illegal immigrants from coming into our country and stealing our jobs."

In this thread, I want to talk about the idea of our country and our jobs.

People immigrate to the USA for better quality of life. It seems that people who are against "illegal immigration" are worried that there is not enough quality of life to go around. This is apparent with them bringing up "our jobs". The fear they have is they won't be able to get a job if everyone is free to come to the USA. Trump supporters think they have some sort of dibs on the quality of life in America.

Even if the idea fear that there is not enough resources to go around is true, do you, as an American, have more of a right to an opportunity of a good life, as opposed to someone not born here?

Let's say that an immigrant gets chosen over you for a job. That's a skill issue on your part, not the immigrants fault.

From the rhetoric I hear from people who dislike immigration and are pro deportation, I generally get the idea that they are fearful that quality of life will go down for them if immigrants are free to come to America.

Is this line of reasoning true? Even if it is, I think it is selfish and we should allow immigrants/refugees a chance to travel to America.

I also ask if an American has dibs on quality of life? Refugees aren't our problem, and if they have a chance to make something for themselves in America, then that will somehow negatively affect me!... Or the thinking seems to go. I think it is wrong thought. You, as an American, have no more of a right to quality of life than someone who is not an American.

I personally don’t think it’s about fear or who owns the country. I’d say that it’s the citizens of a country who should have the rights and ownership of the country.
I think the point or question is do you prefer a country of lawlessness and chaos or a country with law and order? There’s legal immigration or illegal immigration.

 

[Wirey]

For me national identity is essential for the survival of any people.

You ever take a look at countries where people come from? They create or allow their own problems, they don't fight back to rectify their problems, and now they want to go into somebody else's yard univited bringing their way of life with them, and affecting the country they invade with their own baggage.

That line of reasoning is absolutely true, all it takes is one look at Native Americans and what the colonies have done to their Nations that proves it's true.

As far as dibs go I think it's actually true we do have the right to claim land as one's own sometimes through violent and peaceful means because that's just how nature works with social and territorial animals.

We are apes and our collective territorial nature is pretty well established on that front.

Most would not share their home with strangers no more than we would share a country with foreigners who are not invited.

On the plus side, it is true we are not completely territorial and will invite outsiders in , but it would have to be on terms of one's national identity and not the other way around.

This is soooo full of holes I have no idea where to begin, but let's start with the apes thing.

Chimpanzees routinely join new bands. As do macaques, bonobos (our closest behavioral relative) and even gorillas. They only defend land they're using in the moment. When two chimp groups pull up next to each other, there's a lot of yelling and posturing, and then they calm down and the younger chimps begin to interact with each other, regardless of which group they were in to begin with. Our collective nature is exactly established on that front. Humans are gregarious. We group up. And before anyone spouts further nonsense about our innate behaviors, I would suggest reading "Behave" by Sapolsky. It explains why we are such morons about us/them issues. Then read "Collapse" by Diamond. It explains how our societal behaviors lead to the collapse of society, using historic examples. After poor ecological management, guess what the next big idiot move is? Isolation from your neighbors.

And how is national identity essential? The Greenland Norse died out, because they tried to behave like Norsemen. Australia has horrifying ecological problems because they tried to act like Britain. Haiti and the Dominican Republic share an island and are so different that it's scary, but they're both descendants of slaves who had the cajones to revolt. They were one nation, and then one group made crap choices and the other didn't. They had exactly the same national identity, and yet only one is thriving. The one that welcomed immigrants from Spain. The short-sighted ideas some people come up with are genuinely amazing.

 

[Heyo]

I literally said, “I’m not saying it’s right.” But it’s a practical reality that cannot be ignored. Borders and people change. A map of the world today…from 20 years ago…. 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, a 1,000 years ago and so on will all be very different.

Like I said, how do we go about giving back something that someone may have taken from someone 400 years later? Who do we give it back to? What tribes? Who do we take it from? People who never stole a thing in their lives?

I think we have established that there is no legal or moral right to absolutely say that there is an unquestionable ownership of the land. There is a practical side that justifies stewardship/government. This stewardship includes the acceptance of refugees (regulated by an UNHRC convention). (And here also comes a personal moral responsibility of the living, as the US has created some of the circumstances that people are fleeing from.)
And the "why we, and not others" argument also doesn't work, as Europe has taken in many refugees from Afghanistan and Syria - who are fleeing the chaos, the US has produced.

So, practically speaking, what should the US do about immigrants/refugees?
- Make it harder to live in the US as an illegal Immigrant. You can't secure the border, but you can require paperwork to rent a flat and get a job - and punish the landlords and employers if they don't comply.
- Make it easier to enter the US legally. You have illegal immigrants because there is no incentive to be there legally.
- Treat refugees fairly, they are probably there because of US actions.
- Don't listen to bleeding heart liberals or right-wing sociopaths. Get your facts straight. Immigrants (legal or illegal) are neither taking "your" jobs, nor are they more criminal than natives. Also, being in the US illegally is still illegal.

 

[Watchmen]

I think we have established that there is no legal or moral right to absolutely say that there is an unquestionable ownership of the land. There is a practical side that justifies stewardship/government. This stewardship includes the acceptance of refugees (regulated by an UNHRC convention). (And here also comes a personal moral responsibility of the living, as the US has created some of the circumstances that people are fleeing from.)
And the "why we, and not others" argument also doesn't work, as Europe has taken in many refugees from Afghanistan and Syria - who are fleeing the chaos, the US has produced.

So, practically speaking, what should the US do about immigrants/refugees?
- Make it harder to live in the US as an illegal Immigrant. You can't secure the border, but you can require paperwork to rent a flat and get a job - and punish the landlords and employers if they don't comply.
- Make it easier to enter the US legally. You have illegal immigrants because there is no incentive to be there legally.
- Treat refugees fairly, they are probably there because of US actions.
- Don't listen to bleeding heart liberals or right-wing sociopaths. Get your facts straight. Immigrants (legal or illegal) are neither taking "your" jobs, nor are they more criminal than natives. Also, being in the US illegally is still illegal.

I’ll respond more fully later, but you’ve moved the goalposts from illegal immigrants to refugees. Not the same thing at all.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I’ll respond more fully later, but you’ve moved the goalposts from illegal immigrants to refugees. Not the same thing at all.

They are related, because refugees are sometimes seen as illegal immigrants.

 

[Heyo]

I’ll respond more fully later, but you’ve moved the goalposts from illegal immigrants to refugees. Not the same thing at all.

We agree fully on that one. It's only that xenophobes (and those who are playing on xenophobia) don't make that distinction.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is soooo full of holes I have no idea where to begin, but let's start with the apes thing.

Chimpanzees routinely join new bands. As do macaques, bonobos (our closest behavioral relative) and even gorillas. They only defend land they're using in the moment. When two chimp groups pull up next to each other, there's a lot of yelling and posturing, and then they calm down and the younger chimps begin to interact with each other, regardless of which group they were in to begin with. Our collective nature is exactly established on that front. Humans are gregarious. We group up. And before anyone spouts further nonsense about our innate behaviors, I would suggest reading "Behave" by Sapolsky. It explains why we are such morons about us/them issues. Then read "Collapse" by Diamond. It explains how our societal behaviors lead to the collapse of society, using historic examples. After poor ecological management, guess what the next big idiot move is? Isolation from your neighbors.

And how is national identity essential? The Greenland Norse died out, because they tried to behave like Norsemen. Australia has horrifying ecological problems because they tried to act like Britain. Haiti and the Dominican Republic share an island and are so different that it's scary, but they're both descendants of slaves who had the cajones to revolt. They were one nation, and then one group made crap choices and the other didn't. They had exactly the same national identity, and yet only one is thriving. The one that welcomed immigrants from Spain. The short-sighted ideas some people come up with are genuinely amazing.

Well you now know what more developed apes do now.

 

[Wirey]

Well you now know what more developed apes do now.

The fact that an idea that lacks value in that magnitude was actually written down shows pretty conclusively I knew what "more developed apes" did when I described chimp behavior.

 

[Kathryn]

The US takes in legally about 60k refugees a year.

U.S. immigration - refugee admissions FY 1990-2023 | Statista

During the fiscal year of 2023, 60,014 refugees were admitted to the United States.

www.statista.com