Do you own the USA? (Closed/open border debate)

[an anarchist]

Don’t cherry pick. Read the rest. Taxes. Law and order. Social security. Why can’t we stick with a lawful process?

Does illegal immigration personally affect you negatively?

If you can say more than simply listing buzzwords that'd be nice.

Also, the lawful route to immigrate to America is not a viable option for many it seems. If they could immigrate legally, they probably would. Illegal immigration is often a desperate act when legal immigration is not viable.

 

[RestlessSoul]

We certainly do own it collectively. My nation is my home.

How is it yours, if you stole it from the Indians?

 

[Twilight Hue]

How is it yours, if you stole it from the Indians?

I didn't steal it. I was born here though making it my home.

 

[Kathryn]

I didn't steal it. I was born here though making it my home.

I didn't steal it either, I was born here too though.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I didn't steal it either, I was born here too though.

Making us both Native Americans.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not an USA citizen, nor linked to it in any significant way.

As a rule, I don't have a lot of time for national considerations for anything beyond establishment of political authority.

Countries are political fictions and ought to be recognized as such.

As for migrants and jobs, in my experience those concerns tend to be both much inflated and, paradoxically, pretty much impossible to truly address.

There is only so much that can be done to pretend that there are not people in other countries - and there is only so much that migrants can do to overcome the advantages of people who are already well integrated into a community, particularly when there is also a language barrier.

There may be exceptions to the general rule that people afraid of migrants "stealing their jobs" are largely fantasizing, but they certainly are hard to find and tend to be harder to act on without serious injustices.

While I am not in a particularly good position to tell with any authority, secondary sources certainly suggest that both in the USA and in the UK those worries are not only unfair and treated with undue beligerance, but also based on odd economic expectations and premises.

In practice, those seem to be largely phantoms created to provide promises of quick, easy and semi-"respectable" solutions to difficult problems where migrants tend to be more of a solution than a problem.

Unless, I suppose, someone is failing to notice the enthusiasm of natives to fill market needs in farms and other jobs that are typical of first-generation migrants.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is not an irrelevant point.

There are more terrorists among the domestic population. Should we kick out "concerning" Americans who we fear might do a shooting?

That would certainly be interesting to see.

But it is not going to happen. The NRA and other groups are just too politically influent.

Entertaining thought, though.

 

[an anarchist]

Making us both Native Americans.

Are you part of a recognized Native American tribe? If not, you have no claim to that title.

European-Americans make up a significant chunk of America. European-Americans, who descended from Europeans, cannot call themselves "Native Americans". Native Americans are people who descended from Native Americans.

Let's not play semantics with the word "Native". In common vernacular, "Native American" is specifically reserved for descendants of actual Native Americans.

Is this a point I have to elaborate on?

 

[Kathryn]

Making us both Native Americans.

I guess you're right!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Are you part of a recognized Native American tribe? If not, you have no claim to that title.

European-Americans make up a significant chunk of America. European-Americans, who descended from Europeans, cannot call themselves "Native Americans". Native Americans are people who descended from Native Americans.

Let's not play semantics with the word "Native". In common vernacular, "Native American" is specifically reserved for descendants of actual Native Americans.

Is this a point I have to elaborate on?

I never claimed to be of any Indigenous Nation, nor would I ever do such a thing.

But I am Native American because I was born on this land.

 

[Watchmen]

Does illegal immigration personally affect you negatively?

If you can say more than simply listing buzzwords that'd be nice.

Also, the lawful route to immigrate to America is not a viable option for many it seems. If they could immigrate legally, they probably would. Illegal immigration is often a desperate act when legal immigration is not viable.

Sure it affects me personally, but that’s not the point. Why can’t we have law and order? Rules?

 

[Kathryn]

We need to know who is in our country.

 

[Watchmen]

I never claimed to be of any Indigenous Nation, nor would I ever do such a thing.

But I am Native American because I was born on this land.

You’re not a Native American, you’re a native American.

 

[LuisDantas]

I guess you're right!

Guess where?

 

[an anarchist]

I never claimed to be of any Nation, nor would I ever do such a thing. But I am Native American because was born on this land.

So, you are not descended from Native Americans if I understand you correctly.

Do you suppose that colonizers are "Native"?

I don't know your race, but @Kathryn , who is agreeing with you, appears to have descended from the Europe area, given the complexion of skin (if that is her in her profile picture.). So I direct this directly towards her now.

You are not Native American (well, correct me if you descended from Native Americans). Europeans colonized the Native Americans. That does not make you native.

 

[LuisDantas]

I never claimed to be of any Indigenous Nation, nor would I ever do such a thing.

But I am Native American because I was born on this land.

Leaving aside the deliberate disregard for the established name of that expression for a moment...

What does that mean exactly?

That you were subject from birth to specific circunstances not of your choice.

It is not a mark of merit, but instead of a specific set of fortunes and misfortunes.

That has many legal consequences, but hardly any moral ones.

 

[Kathryn]

So, you are not descended from Native Americans if I understand you correctly.

Do you suppose that colonizers are "Native"?

I don't know your race, but @Kathryn , who is agreeing with you, appears to have descended from the Europe area, given the complexion of skin (if that is her in her profile picture.). So I direct this directly towards her now.

You are not Native American (well, correct me if you descended from Native Americans). Europeans colonized the Native Americans. That does not make you native.

Yes, that's me in my profile photo, and all I know is that I didn't steal anything from anyone and I was born here. My family has been here since the 1640s. Nearly 400 years. And we've been solidly middle class for most of that time.

 

[LuisDantas]

The thing with nationalisms (any form whatsoever of nationalism. No exceptions) is that they are utter fantasy and have only very limited and minor usefulness even for their one legitimate use, which is political determinations.

Even European monarchies which went to great lengths to establish unmixed lineages could only do so much. We can't even hope to serious address significant global concerns such as ecology, demography and economics without transcending that make-pretend.

 

[an anarchist]

Yes, that's me in my profile photo, and all I know is that I didn't steal anything from anyone and I was born here. My family has been here since the 1640s. Nearly 400 years. And we've been solidly middle class for most of that time.

I apologize if I came off a bit harsh. I'm trying to implement tactfulness in my postings.

I am not trying to shame anyone for their heritage.

The point I am hoping to make is that our predecessors (I descend from immigrants as well) were "illegal immigrants". In general, Europeans existence on America was paved in Native American blood.

@Twilight Hue indicated early on in the thread that the Native American's terrible outcome is evidence for stronger immigration laws. Guess the Natives should have closed their borders or something...

I see it differently. As descendants of immigrants ourselves, who are we to deny other immigrants the peaceful opportunities to immigrate to America? Our predecessors immigrated forcefully, so now many think that we have rightfully have dibs on the quality of life that is offered in this land, forever. This is not so.

 

[Kathryn]

I apologize if I came off a bit harsh. I'm trying to implement tactfulness in my postings.

I am not trying to shame anyone for their heritage.

The point I am hoping to make is that our predecessors (I descend from immigrants as well) were "illegal immigrants". In general, Europeans existence on America was paved in Native American blood.

@Twilight Hue indicated early on in the thread that the Native American's terrible outcome is evidence for stronger immigration laws. Guess the Natives should have closed their borders or something...

I see it differently. As descendants of immigrants ourselves, who are we to deny other immigrants the peaceful opportunities to immigrate to America? Our predecessors immigrated forcefully, so now many think that we have rightfully have dibs on the quality of life that is offered in this land, forever. This is not so.

All I know is that I cannot change the past. I wish I could but I can't. Anyway, I was born here and my family is "native" in the sense that we've been in this country for about 400 years. Do I wish that Europeans had treated the Native Americans better? Sure I do. But there is absolutely nothing I can do about it now other than treat others the way I'd like to be treated, which is generally how I behave myself.