Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[McBell]

Where did I change the goal posts?

When you tried using secular truths to support your religious truth claims.

God is all powerful is a religious truth.
The crime rate is rising is a secular truth.


Secular truths can be absolute across the board.
Religious truths are not.

Therefore you moved the goal posts in an attempt to support your claim.

 

[waitasec]

opcorn:



gotta stop eating this popcorn or i won't be able to continue fooling myself that i weigh 125 lbs...

 

[Kathryn]

Until you started using examples outside of of religious beliefs.
That is when you started playing the weasel word games.

The fact is that all religious truths are subjective.
You have been arguing that they are not.
You screwed up when you started using non-religious truths in an attempt to support your claim.

As I said, you came in rather late in the game. You seem to have missed some critical turns in the road on this thread.

My point (made many pages back) is that regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof, we all hold beliefs regarding things we believe to be true. And by that, I don't mean strictly religious beliefs - but those are included.

When we believe things that contradict what others believe, we believe these because we believe them to be TRUE. Which means that we believe contradictory beliefs to be UNTRUE.

I brought this up because some people insist that they have chosen a certain path of belief, which contradicts another path, but it's all sweetness and light because that other path is true, too.

I think that's basically dishonest - a bundle of words which strung together mean basically nothing - but on the surface sounds nice.

What I was doing was calling that out. Atheists believe that God does not exist. Therefore they believe that those who DO believe God exists are wrong. Buddhists do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Word. Therefore they believe that those who do believe that are wrong.

They can say "I just didn't find the truth I need in Christianity," all they want, but what they really mean is, "I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. Therefore, I believe that Christians believe in things that are not true."

I brought all that up because so often, people speak of the intolerance and the arrogance of others who hold certain beliefs, while not admitting that they believe just as strongly that others are mistaken.

Here's the rub - SO WHAT? We aren't all right. We can't possibly be. All of us should continue to seek wisdom. We're all probably wrong on quite a few points of truth.

I just think it's hypocritical to claim to have respect for the beliefs of others when they disagree with your beliefs. Respect for their RIGHT to disagree? Absolutely. Respect for their life experiences which bring them to this set of beliefs? Certainly. But to claim to respect that which you believe is UNTRUE? What's the honor in that? How is that good?

As a Christian on this forum, I am constantly reminded of the disrespect that others have for my faith. My Diety is called a Sky Daddy. My beliefs are ridiculed. Icons are turned into cartoons. People crack jokes and laugh at beliefs as integral to the Christian faith as the Eucharist, the Trinity, the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc.

That's OK - I expect that on this forum, and if it bothers me unduly, I have the right to simply leave the forum.

It doesn't bother me much, though. I continue to participate willingly, and to debate and discuss all sorts of topics, religious and otherwise.

But I will also point out hypocrisy and inconsistency whenever I find it. I don't demand respect for my faith here, but I do demand honesty.

 

[Kathryn]

When you tried using secular truths to support your religious truth claims.

Therefore you moved the goal posts in an attempt to support your claim.

What were my claims of religious truths?

 

[McBell]

What were my claims of religious truths?

Flat earth sound familiar?

 

[Father Heathen]

Personally, I find the notion that truth is in the eye of the beholder to be a little silly.
Let's say that someone believed themselves to be bullet proof. You can say "it's true to them", but if you were to shoot them in the head you would see just how far that "truth" goes.

 

[Kathryn]

Father Heathen, I do believe you're right - though of course someone else may think you're wrong and then who really knows what the truth is? LOL

As I said on the other thread regarding truth:

You all do know, don't you, that we will not be able to reach an agreement on what Truth actually is, right? Greater minds than ours have grappled with that question since the beginning of time. I don't expect us to figure it out on this forum.

We each have to figure it out as best we can for ourselves and then live with as much integrity as possible while applying what we believe to be truth to our lives. Sometimes this means showing respect for others whose idea of truth doesn't match up with ours, and sometimes it means going to battle against them.

History teaches us this, doesn't it? Sometimes we must take a stand for what we believe with all our heart to be the absolute truth whether others agree with us or not.

 

[Kathryn]

Flat earth sound familiar?

That wasn't, and isn't, strictly a religious belief. You're grasping at straws, not that I blame you. To expect anyone to read through pages and pages of this thread would be asking a bit much.

 

[McBell]

As I said, you came in rather late in the game. You seem to have missed some critical turns in the road on this thread.

My point (made many pages back) is that regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof, we all hold beliefs regarding things we believe to be true. And by that, I don't mean strictly religious beliefs - but those are included.

And here is a big part of the problem.
You assume that there is no difference between religious truths and secular truths.

When we believe things that contradict what others believe, we believe these because we believe them to be TRUE. Which means that we believe contradictory beliefs to be UNTRUE.

This is a mere assumption on your part.
An assumption you tried really hard to shove down Sky's throat.

I brought this up because some people insist that they have chosen a certain path of belief, which contradicts another path, but it's all sweetness and light because that other path is true, too.

Where is your irrefutable evidence that it is not true?

I think that's basically dishonest - a bundle of words which strung together mean basically nothing - but on the surface sounds nice.

Which applies to every single religious "truth" that is and ever was.

What I was doing was calling that out. Atheists believe that God does not exist. Therefore they believe that those who DO believe God exists are wrong. Buddhists do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Word. Therefore they believe that those who do believe that are wrong.

Asinine generalizations aside, you make assumptions that as to what people think and believe and try using said assumptions as your support.

Now I understand that that really all you have to support your claim, but it is rather interesting that you cannot even see that that is what you are doing.

I suspect it has to do with your thinking your truth is truth...

They can say "I just didn't find the truth I need in Christianity," all they want, but what they really mean is, "I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. Therefore, I believe that Christians believe in things that are not true."

Again you dictate what other think and believe.
Are by chance gifted with mind reading?

I brought all that up because so often, people speak of the intolerance and the arrogance of others who hold certain beliefs, while not admitting that they believe just as strongly that others are mistaken.

Beliefs alone do not make one arrogant.
What makes a person arrogant is the way they communicate said beliefs.

Here's the rub - SO WHAT? We aren't all right. We can't possibly be. All of us should continue to seek wisdom. We're all probably wrong on quite a few points of truth.

What is your 'irrefutable evidence' that this ever elusive "absolute truth" you cling to exists?

I just think it's hypocritical to claim to have respect for the beliefs of others when they disagree with your beliefs. Respect for their RIGHT to disagree? Absolutely. Respect for their life experiences which bring them to this set of beliefs? Certainly. But to claim to respect that which you believe is UNTRUE? What's the honor in that? How is that good?

You inability to respect something and disagree with it at the same time is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I do find it interesting how you would claim to accept that you might be wrong about some truth yet rant and rave about not being able to respect something you think is untrue.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to show us this truth that you makes you so cocksure?

As a Christian on this forum, I am constantly reminded of the disrespect that others have for my faith. My Diety is called a Sky Daddy. My beliefs are ridiculed. Icons are turned into cartoons. People crack jokes and laugh at beliefs as integral to the Christian faith as the Eucharist, the Trinity, the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc.

Nice little rant.
Can we get back on topic?

That's OK - I expect that on this forum, and if it bothers me unduly, I have the right to simply leave the forum.

Waiting to get back on topic.

It doesn't bother me much, though. I continue to participate willingly, and to debate and discuss all sorts of topics, religious and otherwise.

Your topic irrelevant rants seem to indicate that it bothers you more than you think.

But I will also point out hypocrisy and inconsistency whenever I find it. I don't demand respect for my faith here, but I do demand honesty.

Yet you hav enot shown how it is hypocritical, dishonest, or inconsistent.

Seems you are allowing your passions to over rule your reason.

 

[McBell]

That wasn't, and isn't, strictly a religious belief. You're grasping at straws, not that I blame you. To expect anyone to read through pages and pages of this thread would be asking a bit much.

Yes it is grasping at straws.
But it was YOU who was grasping at them, not me.

Sad that you seem unable to understand.

 

[Thief]

Does that also include all the religious crutches, all the faith crutches, all the wishful thinking crutches, all the dogma crutches, etc. as well?

As well, the lack of faith....

 

[waitasec]

Personally, I find the notion that truth is in the eye of the beholder to be a little silly.
Let's say that someone believed themselves to be bullet proof. You can say "it's true to them", but if you were to shoot them in the head you would see just how far that "truth" goes.

but it is true they are not bullet proof...that is verifiable...shoot em' and it'll will be confirmed...

it's with unverifiable truths that is found in the eye of the beholder...

 

[McBell]

As well, the lack of faith....

How exactly is lack of faith a crutch?

 

[Thief]

Personally, I find the notion that truth is in the eye of the beholder to be a little silly.

Good up to this point...

Let's say that someone believed themselves to be bullet proof. You can say "it's true to them", but if you were to shoot them in the head you would see just how far that "truth" goes.

....then a digression to a poor perspective.

If you really want to poke (or shoot) the other guy's perspective....
take the perspective as your own and see where it goes....
THEN say why it fails.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder?

What appears to be repeatable fails when the circumstances change.

This would be a religious debate?...belief in life after death?

Let's say...You actually get a shot at me....the real thing.
I die.
I then go before you, and prepare for your pending arrival.
I could be the one standing over you, as you breath your last breathe.

Having gone before you, with faith....I might well have favor in the next life.

What then of you?...as you stand up from your dust.
Will your nay saying continue to be your shield?
Will the nay saying prevent....judgment?

 

[McBell]

it's with unverifiable truths that is found in the eye of the beholder...

Like the very existence of God.
Now since the very existence of god is unverifiable, then people are free to believe what ever tickles their fancy about this unverifiable being.

What is comical is how people argue the various alleged "truths" they associate with and to said god.

 

[McBell]

....then a digression to a poor perspective.

If you really want to poke (or shoot) the other guy's perspective....
take the perspective as your own and see where it goes....
THEN say why it fails.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder?

What appears to be repeatable fails when the circumstances change.

This would be a religious debate?...belief in life after death?

Let's say...You actually get a shot at me....the real thing.
I die.
I then go before you, and prepare for your pending arrival.
I could be the one standing over you, as you breath your last breathe.

Having gone before you, with faith....I might well have favor in the next life.

What then of you?...as you stand up from your dust.
Will your nay saying continue to be your shield?
Will the nay saying prevent....judgment?

Waiting for you to verify these 'truths' you speak of....

 

[Thief]

Waiting for you to verify these 'truths' you speak of....

All in good time.....all in good time.

 

[McBell]

All in good time.....all in good time.

Hopefully you will cause everyone to turn away before you get around to it...

 

[Thief]

Hopefully you will cause everyone to turn away before you get around to it...

Or you....could go back and read this entire thread and learn something.

 

[Father Heathen]

but it is true they are not bullet proof...that is verifiable...shoot em' and it'll will be confirmed...

it's with unverifiable truths that is found in the eye of the beholder...

If something is unverifiable, then it is presumption and speculation, not truth.