Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Kathryn]

Thank you for noticing. I have answered the question for Kathryn many times. She doesn't like my answer.

You won't answer the complete question. Your answer may be the best you have to offer, and I agree it's your answer and the only one you're going to give - but it's not a logical answer because you will not answer the complete question -you will only answer part of it. That's OK though - I understand what you're trying to say. That doesn't mean I'm buying it, but I do understand it.

Kathryn's words: "They can say "I just didn't find the truth I need in Christianity," all they want, but what they really mean is, "I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. Therefore, I believe that Christians believe in things that are not true."

This is the kind of idea she posits when all I've said is that Buddhism is as true for Buddhists as Christianity is for Christians. Somehow I get the impression she is offended by my answer.

As I've stated repeatedly, your impression is wrong. I am not offended at all by your position or beliefs. I am simply debating with you. It's nothing personal.

Christianity was a disaster for me. I am happy to have found Buddhism. Christianity brings Kathryn and other Christians happiness. I respect that.

I respect your right to choose Buddhism. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with some group's or some individual's take on Christianity as well.

No one religion owns the truth.

Not sure what you mean by "owning" the truth. I don't believe that truth can be "owned." Truth is truth, period, regardless of whois claiming it.

You can BELIEVE that "no one religion owns the truth," but that is simply your opinion on the matter. Unproveable, basically.

That being said, even among specific religions with clearly defined doctrines, individuals within that particular religion will invariably add their own baggage to that religion and consider it truth -so I do agree that no one person's religious experience of set of beliefs can possibly hold all truth.

Religion only points to the truth like a finger points to the moon.

The finger is not the moon. The religion is not the truth, but it points to the truth. Some are able to find it in Christianity, others in Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, Islam or Buddhism.

Using your analogy, the moon is truth and religions are fingers. If all the fingers are not pointing to the moon, not all fingers are pointing to the truth. So not all religions point to the truth.

Those who proselytize do so because they think their religion is the only true path. They are looking for converts, and cannot live with differences.

There are many reasons why people proselytize. This may be one of them but it's not the only one. Some people proselytize because they geunuinely want to help other people.

For the record, and to set it straight since you've accused me of this several times, I am not trying to convert you. You go on wid cho bad seff and be Buddhist all you want to be - that's your life choice and I respect your right to make your own choices. Have at it.

 

[Kathryn]

I guess the lesson from all of this is to not discuss religion with anyone other than someone from your own faith or someone who is interested in your faith. So now, when a JW comes to my door, I'll smile, wave goodbye and close the door.

That's fine, but no one is standing at your front door right now. You have voluntarily entered into a debate forum and expressed your views on a thread devoted to those who wish to debate and discuss various religious concepts.

Don't act surprised or offended or victimized when that happens.
:slap:

 

[Vile Atheist]

That's fine, but no one is standing at your front door right now. You have voluntarily entered into a debate forum and expressed your views on a thread devoted to those who wish to debate and discuss various religious concepts.

Don't act surprised or offended or victimized when that happens.
:slap:

This is probably one of the best points made on this thread so far.

 

[petewentz]

I posted on this thread on like, page 6, and now it's gotten to 35 pages. I am completely lost in the conversation. I guess I'll just start by agreeing with Kathryn and saying by entering a debate, you are willingly engaging in topics of interest, yet do you still try to convert or defend your stance? Anytime I debate, I try to convey the most concise information possible so that the other person can make up their, hopefully, open mind.

 

[waitasec]

you are willingly engaging in topics of interest, yet do you still try to convert or defend your stance? Anytime I debate, I try to convey the most concise information possible so that the other person can make up their, hopefully, open mind.

i do not willingly let people knock on my door to engage in a conversation about their belief...

i won't go to a graduation ceremony only to be subjected to the lords prayer either...

 

[petewentz]

i do not willingly let people knock on my door to engage in a conversation about their belief...

This is my fault. I was responding to Kathryn who said that by partaking in debates on this forum you are willingly engaging in exchange of ideas. Someone knocking at your door and you logging into RF are two different things. Like I said though, that was my fault, I didn't specify.

i won't go to a graduation ceremony only to be subjected to the lords prayer either...

I agree with this completely. I hate when athletes thank God for their abilities when in reality they are the ones who have worked hard for years to be where they are.

 

[Vinayaka]

Language is a tricky thing. I really wonder what this may have come to had the thread's title been: "Do you really think they are HURTING anyone?"

 

[waitasec]

This is my fault. I was responding to Kathryn who said that by partaking in debates on this forum you are willingly engaging in exchange of ideas. Someone knocking at your door and you logging into RF are two different things. Like I said though, that was my fault, I didn't specify.



I agree with this completely. I hate when athletes thank God for their abilities when in reality they are the ones who have worked hard for years to be where they are.

maybe i should have done a little more research before responding...


:bonk:

 

[waitasec]

Language is a tricky thing. I really wonder what this may have come to had the thread's title been: "Do you really think they are HURTING anyone?"

yes i think they would...


why don't you start a thread with that title and i'll explain why...

 

[Kathryn]

i won't go to a graduation ceremony only to be subjected to the lords prayer either...

Most people living in the United States are theists. The majority of those theists are Christians. That may change, but for now that's how it is.

If I lived in Japan (which, in fact, I did) it would be petty of me to get offended whenever an official expressed a Shinto belief at a public event, or if I had to go to a Shinto shrine on a school trip (a very common practice). Would my rights be infringed? Should I become "righteously indignant?" Or should I be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others?

By the way, as for the Lord's Prayer, or any other prayer, at any sort of public school graduation, those must be led by STUDENTS, not faculty. At graduation ceremonies, it's not about you. It's about the students.

 

[waitasec]

Most people living in the United States are theists. The majority of those theists are Christians. That may change, but for now that's how it is.

If I lived in Japan (which, in fact, I did) it would be petty of me to get offended whenever an official expressed a Shinto belief at a public event, or if I had to go to a Shinto shrine on a school trip (a very common practice). Would my rights be infringed? Should I become "righteously indignant?" Or should I be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others?

By the way, as for the Lord's Prayer, or any other prayer, at any sort of public school graduation, those must be led by STUDENTS, not faculty. At graduation ceremonies, it's not about you. It's about the students.

but kathryn you are living in the US...where it's liberty and justice for all
not the majority

edit:
check this out
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...bates/115880-long-i-have-religion-i-dont.html

i am almost certain if a devil worshiper were to lead people in prayer in a graduation ceremony in a public highschool...we'd have a completely different story?
or would you defend the devil worshipers right?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I hope everyone here did not think we where going to reach a consensus on this subject.

I don't believe there is any one answer to this OP.

I would say the majority of the time, the proselytizer is just edifying themselves and not helping others.

That said, there are genuinely people out there who are trying to help folks and many times do.

 

[blackout]

Most people living in the United States are theists. The majority of those theists are Christians. That may change, but for now that's how it is.

If I lived in Japan (which, in fact, I did) it would be petty of me to get offended whenever an official expressed a Shinto belief at a public event, or if I had to go to a Shinto shrine on a school trip (a very common practice). Would my rights be infringed? Should I become "righteously indignant?" Or should I be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others?

By the way, as for the Lord's Prayer, or any other prayer, at any sort of public school graduation, those must be led by STUDENTS, not faculty. At graduation ceremonies, it's not about you. It's about the students.

Really though, if they are going to set aside a spot for 'prayer',
it should be presented as a spot for ANY STUDENTS,
of any religious/spiritual persuasion.
If one religion steps in,
the school should then announce that there is an open place
for students of ANY/ALL religions
to contribute their own form of prayer,
at that particular time in the assembly.
Yes, including 'pagan' prayers (and prayers to "Pagan" Gods)
Wiccans, Witches, and even Occultic and LHP invocations.
Freedom for all. (not just the majority)
I do wonder how all the christians in the stands,
parents, students and teachers, would react to a Satanist or Luciferian openly taking the podium.
I'm guessing they would be exceedingly rude.
I just can't imagine they would extend the same gracious tolerance,
in the name of freedom of religion.
I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[blackout]

Could you imagine if Luciferians, Satanists, and Setians
went door to door! HAHAHA! Here in America?! oh boy...

I don't even think that Wiccans could get away with it.

Not that any of us would want to.
Well, maybe just for the fun of observing peoples' reactions.

 

[waitasec]

I hope everyone here did not think we where going to reach a consensus on this subject.

I don't believe there is any one answer to this OP.

I would say the majority of the time, the proselytizer is just edifying themselves and not helping others.

That said, there are genuinely people out there who are trying to help folks and many times do.

i just call it what it is...
pushy.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Could you imagine if Luciferians, Satanists, and Setians
went door to door! HAHAHA! Here in America?! oh boy...

I don't even think that Wiccans could get away with it.

Not that any of us would want to.
Well, maybe just for the fun of observing peoples' reactions.

Same for most minority religions. An even worse reaction would occur if you tried to preach Christianity door to door in the Middle East.

 

[ChristineES]

i do not willingly let people knock on my door to engage in a conversation about their belief...

i won't go to a graduation ceremony only to be subjected to the lords prayer either...

To be honest, I agree with you about knocking on my door. It is doesn't really bother me, but I know that some people only want friends and neighbors to bother them and most want a warning that friends are dropping by.

But if you go to a public event (like graduation), which includes prayer, you just have to deal with it or not go. Prayer is short and you can think about something else while others who want to do it listen and pray. People who want prayer at these events have rights, too.

And I don't mind missionaries. People can preach to those who WANT to be preached to and if someone doesn't want it, they don't need to hear it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Most people living in the United States are theists. The majority of those theists are Christians. That may change, but for now that's how it is.

If I lived in Japan (which, in fact, I did) it would be petty of me to get offended whenever an official expressed a Shinto belief at a public event, or if I had to go to a Shinto shrine on a school trip (a very common practice). Would my rights be infringed? Should I become "righteously indignant?" Or should I be tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others?

By the way, as for the Lord's Prayer, or any other prayer, at any sort of public school graduation, those must be led by STUDENTS, not faculty. At graduation ceremonies, it's not about you. It's about the students.

Exactly. ALL the students however, Kathryn, not just the majority that just happen to be Christian......

 

[waitasec]

proselytizing outside of the walls of any place of worship makes about as much sense as proselytizing while getting a lap dance in a strip club with a beer in one hand and cash in the other...

 

[waitasec]

To be honest, I agree with you about knocking on my door. It is doesn't really bother me, but I know that some people only want friends and neighbors to bother them and most want a warning that friends are dropping by.

But if you go to a public event (like graduation), which includes prayer, you just have to deal with it or not go. Prayer is short and you can think about something else while others who want to do it listen and pray. People who want prayer at these events have rights, too.

but then again, had it been a satanist...would you still think he was well within his right to pray to satan in front of a god fearing audience?