Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[McBell]

Or you....could go back and read this entire thread and learn something.

I have learned quite a bit from this thread.
Unfortunately, none of it was from you.

Perhaps if you were to change up your little song and dance....

 

[Thief]

If something is unverifiable, then it is presumption and speculation, not truth.

And yet a logical progression of thought.

Most of what I debate....it's one way or the other.

Neither side, of faith or lacking, seem to have little appreciation for my handiwork.

 

[Thief]

I have learned quite a bit from this thread.
Unfortunately, none of it was from you.

Perhaps if you were to change up your little song and dance....

Not you marionette.

 

[McBell]

Not you marionette.

I did not figure you able to present yourself in a coherent or even understandable manner.

 

[Thief]

I did not figure you able to present yourself in a coherent or even understandable manner.

And now the ongoing empty retorts....

 

[McBell]

And now the ongoing empty retorts....

Well, if you wish for mine to stop, stop with yours.
Simple really.

Though perhaps being simple is the problem?
That I did not make it all mystical and mysterious sounding?

 

[Thief]

Well, if you wish for mine to stop, stop with yours.
Simple really.

Though perhaps being simple is the problem?
That I did not make it all mystical and mysterious sounding?

And at last you reveal what you are really all about.....
getting the last post.

Go ahead.

 

[McBell]

And at last you reveal what you are really all about.....
getting the last post.

Go ahead.

You go right ahead and tell yourself whatever you have to.
You seem quite the expert at that.

 

[sky dancer]

If a Roman Catholic believes that he is ingesting the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ during the Eucharist, does that make it true? Is he REALLY ingesting the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ?

I mean, he believes it - it's his path, it's valid apparently, but is it true or not?

He's eating a wafer and drinking wine. What his spiritual experience of eathing that wafer and wine may be different.

 

[sky dancer]

How many times does she have to answer this question?
Seems to me you are merely badgering her until she gives the answer you are looking for.

Thank you for noticing. I have answered the question for Kathryn many times. She doesn't like my answer.

Kathryn's words: "They can say "I just didn't find the truth I need in Christianity," all they want, but what they really mean is, "I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. Therefore, I believe that Christians believe in things that are not true."

This is the kind of idea she posits when all I've said is that Buddhism is as true for Buddhists as Christianity is for Christians. Somehow I get the impression she is offended by my answer.

Christianity was a disaster for me. I am happy to have found Buddhism. Christianity brings Kathryn and other Christians happiness. I respect that.

I respect that our minds work differently. No one religion owns the truth. Religion only points to the truth like a finger points to the moon.

The finger is not the moon. The religion is not the truth, but it points to the truth. Some are able to find it in Christianity, others in Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, Islam or Buddhism.

Those who proselytize do so because they think their religion is the only true path. They are looking for converts, and cannot live with differences.

 

[sky dancer]

She hasn't answered the question. She has skirted the question. Pity you can't seem to catch that.

Here's an example of that tactic:

"Do you believe that people who believe the earth is flat are just as correct as those who believe the earth is a sphere?"

"I believe that people who believe the earth is flat are correct in their own mind, and therefore for them, the earth is flat."

A nonsensical answer.

Buddhist answers often sound non-sensical to a non-buddhist. It's because they must be meditated on.

They are wisdom teachings.

For example, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" is a famous Buddhist koan. It sounds like nonsense, doesn't it?

It is an invitation to drop thinking altogether and experience truth in the moment.

Kathryn, I think truth is non-conceptual, experiential, and not in doctrine. Teachings can point to the truth, but they are not the truth. Truth is.

 

[Vorinn]

It might be worth pointing out here that members of minority religious groups can sometimes be a bit defensive about proselytism. I think many of us have had the experience of starting what we thought was going to be a reasonable conversation with a member of a different religion, only to have it turn rapidly into them attempting to convert us. It's not a pleasant experience, and it can make it hard to trust people who belong to proselytizing religions enough to have a conversation on these topics with them.

What is intended as simple discussion or debate can come across as proselytism, simply because of the history the other person has with these conversations. That's not to say that there aren't people out there really trying to convert others - of course there are. But I'm not sure they're as common as some of us assume. And I think it's worth making a distinction between people who are actively trying to convert others, and people who are simply sharing their viewpoint but wouldn't mind changing someone else's mind. Unfortunately, the line between those isn't sharply defined.

 

[sky dancer]

I don't usually discuss religion with non-buddhists because they feel there is only one truth path, and it's theirs.

I get along well with people from other religions in my real life, because we connect heart to heart and mind to mind. We find plenty of common ground. We're friends.

Discussing religious doctrine, or 'what is truth?' with a non-buddhist, hasn't been an enjoyable experience for me. It's one I prefer to avoid.

When I talk about Christianity at all in my real life, it's usually to a Buddhist or former Christian. Then I am able to share my life story and the reasons that I find Buddhism to be my path.

 

[sky dancer]

I guess the lesson from all of this is to not discuss religion with anyone other than someone from your own faith or someone who is interested in your faith. So now, when a JW comes to my door, I'll smile, wave goodbye and close the door.

 

[ChristineES]

I guess the lesson from all of this is to not discuss religion with anyone other than someone from your own faith or someone who is interested in your faith. So now, when a JW comes to my door, I'll smile, wave goodbye and close the door.

I was taught as a child to avoid talking about religion and politics. I come to the RF so I can talk about religion. I am hoping I grow with my faith and try to become the best person I can be.

 

[Draka]

I don't usually discuss religion with non-buddhists because they feel there is only one truth path, and it's theirs.

You do realize, don't you, that your very first assertion here is wrong? Not all non-Buddhists believe there is only one path. You are the one generalizing there.

 

[Vile Atheist]

When you evangelize and preach your religion to other people?

Do you really think that other people want to hear you chastise their beliefs and tell them they believe wrong and that they should believe what you believe? Do you have any idea how rude and narcissistic you come off to others when you preach at them and quote scripture at them? Do you honestly think that tactic really helps anyone?

This isn't directed at anyone in particular here, but I know there are some here who like to "spread the word" as it were and really wonder if they think they are helping at all?

I think proselytizing comes more as a need to convince yourself than to convince others. People naturally feel that if more people agree with them, their beliefs are validated, which is obviously a logical fallacy. I think people who are the loudest and most opinionated are probably the most unsure about themselves and seek that validation from "being right" and "winning a debate".

I'm not sure if what I do counts as proselytizing. I don't normally engage people. I listen to people's opposing views with an open mind. If they're willing to challenge my views or ask my opinion on theirs, I'll defend my beliefs with as much logic and evidence that I can muster to support it. It's not so much religion that I oppose, but a sort of unthinking blind acceptance of what other people say without any sort of questioning. And I know because I was once a Christian and I've been down that road.

But if what I do can be said to be proselytizing, I see a benefit in that if I can encourage someone to look at things objectively, question everything, embrace the scientific method, and more, we'll have a better and more rational world.

 

[blackout]

Kathryn,

I don't know if this consideration will help.
There are many of us
whose 'religious' paths are about
the personal subjective experience.
They are purposefully psyche-centric to one extent or another.
The religious experience itself
is to do with Self interpretation,
metaphor, symbolism,
personally chosen pantheons,
selectively chosen with reasons
known only in the depths of the individual.

Some are more about a "State of Being",
or Becoming.
In the wisdom of such a mind-Set,
it is not the means that gets you to the State of Being,
that is the most important thing,
but the attainment of that State of Being.

So if religion/life'style/philosophy/practice
U,V,W,X, Y and Z ALL get differing people
to the SAME QUALITY/STATE of BEing,
than they have all been equally sucessful.
They have all worked.
And THAT is the ALL important TRUTH of THAT religion.

In this way,
it TRULY does not matter AT ALL
from this point of view,
whether or not your Jesus
was really ever even a man at all.

Also, for some of us non christians,
the idea of Jesus Being God,
also is no big deal,
because we see EVERYONE
as Being God.

All I'm saying is,
this idea of Truth
is not the clear cut,
black and white picture
that we often Image'ine it to be.
Especially to those of more personalized,
and or esoteric views.

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

I think yesterday i was discussing it with my sister who have visited me a long time after and in our family we discussed and share every thing new about religion.

 

[blackout]

Let me say also kathryn,
that I do understand your outlook is more black and white.

If there is a black and white heaven and hell situation
for example,
as most of christiandom puts forth,
I'm personally and religiously ok with my black side of the cookie.
I have no choice but to be True to My Own Self.
Christianity as a path, over time, led me away from that Truth.
And THAT is the ONLY real Truth I can say I know for sure.
The Truth of the peace, inner personal fulfillment, creative vitality...

These things are my goal.
They are my 'end game' (so to speak)
If I mySelf am in a State of Peace,
however,
and someone drags me off and tortures me,
in my world,
in my reality,
that does not make ME
the bad guy.
This more powerful 'god',
is TRUTHFULLY acting outside
the equally existent Truth of my Own sense
of tyranny vrs. right'eousness.


In other words,
my truth, will STILL and ever be MY Truth.
(even if your truth is also true)